The Simulacrum spell description in the PHB seems to raise more questions than it answers. Please help me, as the creation of simulacrums is about to factor very heavily in my campaign...
There's really no end to the trouble this spell could cause, and in a way, it's far superior to clone (especially if you don't plan on dying). Over time, a high level wizard could create a veritable army of simulacrums of herself to function as 100% loyal minions, each with an arsenal of spells. Or she could create bunches of simulacrums from her enemy's most powerful troops to serve as spies, asassins or guardians.
1. Does a simulacrum realize that it is not really the person or creature it was copied from? If yes, what effect does this have on its personality? If no, but it is confronted with evidence of its true nature, what effect does this have on its personality?
2. If you create a simulacrum of yourself, how do you explain to the copy what it is, why you made it, why it must obey you, etc.? Is there some way to alter its memory so it will believe it is your "real" twin? What happens if you treat it like an expendable slave?
3. A simulacrum is made of ice and snow and is not really alive. Wouldn't it be considered a construct? Should it take +50% damage from fire-based attacks?
4. If it is a construct, then the Repair __ Damage spells from T&B would then heal it without needing to waste lots of time and money, and the various spells that control/damage constructs would affect it as well.
5. If it is copied from a wizard, can the simulacrum still call a familiar or improved familiar just like the original wizard could?
6. The PHB spell description says the creator can exercise control over the simulacrum, but only directly. Does this mean the simulacrum does as it wishes when alone, so long as it follows the creator's instructions on what it can and cannot do when the creator is not around? Or does it not even need to follow any directions if its creator is not present to give them?
7. I assume a simulacrum would behave like the original being it was copied from, with the same reactions, emotional triggers, etc., but can it ever grow in different directions than its progenitor, as it will likely experience a very different future than its creator?
8. Do the use of able telepathy from a distance (or sending spells, etc.). count as excercising "direct control" over the simulacrum?
9. Would the simulacrum of an evil, ambitious person or creature plot to supplant and replace its creator (assuming the creator was not aware of this)?
Last edited by Iron_Chef; 8th July 2003 at 08:16 AM..
If you make a simulacrum of a vampire, will it be undead too, or represent the person when they were alive? Frex, there's this 11th level dude who just got turned into a vampire and I thought maybe my 13th level wizard could "save" him by creating a simulacrum of him, making a copy of him that was 6th level but alive, because the dude was alive then and not a vampire...
Come to think of it, if the simulacrum only has 50% of the original's power, does that mean the simulacrum is equal to 100% of the power level and has 100% of the memories and abilities of the original from the time they were half their level (the level of the simulacrum)? Or does it mean they have half the power of the original but you roll for a 50% chance that they remember/know anything as each such need for that info comes up in play?
Frex, does a clone of yourself (made when you were 10th level) know everything you knew up to when you were 5th level? Or does it just have a 50% chance of knowing each piece of information you knew up until the time you were copied to make the simulacrum?
Originally posted by Hypersmurf 9. So I've got the Empower Spell feat, right, and...
-Hyp.
You might be interested in the simulacrum wars plot I've got going on in me story hour about now... it revolves around multiple-empowered simulacra, and will prolly lead directly to the in-game justification for the 3.5 changes...
You might be interested in the simulacrum wars plot I've got going on in me story hour about now... it revolves around multiple-empowered simulacra, and will prolly lead directly to the in-game justification for the 3.5 changes...
Do you use the double-empowered 54% = 108% interpretation?
Do you use the double-empowered 54% = 108% interpretation?
-Hyp.
Nope... the 100-120%. It makes the opponents much more fun, and since it won't be possible to do this in 3.5 I felt there was no real danger of breaking anything permanently.
Have you had any 120% Simulacra creating 120% Simulacra of themselves, chaining to end up with a 10th generation Simulacrum six times as powerful as the original caster?
Have you had any 120% Simulacra creating 120% Simulacra of themselves, chaining to end up with a 10th generation Simulacrum six times as powerful as the original caster?
-Hyp.
Heh... funny you should ask!
Part of the hook of it all is that a simulacrum that's over 100% of its originator is no longer controlled, so there are 120% simulacra creating 60-72% simulacra that serve it, and a few that have created ones above their own level for various reasons, often having to do with the same arrogance that led the 'progenitor' of the original three 120% simulacra to try it in the first place.
The fact that simulacra can't grow more powerful is their major limit.
The following is opinion and conjecture, and is written after only a quick reading of this thread and an equally quick reading of the spell description in the SRD. Do with it as you will.
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1. Does a simulacrum realize that it is not really the person or creature it was copied from? If yes, what effect does this have on its personality? If no, but it is confronted with evidence of its true nature, what effect does this have on its personality?
The Simulacrum is a semi-real duplicate, an illusory construct of sorts. It behaves as though it is the creature that it is copied from but is aware, on some level, that it is not this being. Confronted with evidence, the simulacrum might nod politely or angrily dismiss the evidence as lies, depending on the orders of its creator and the personality of the individual that it was copied from.
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2. If you create a simulacrum of yourself, how do you explain to the copy what it is, why you made it, why it must obey you, etc.? Is there some way to alter its memory so it will believe it is your "real" twin? What happens if you treat it like an expendable slave?
No explanation is necessary. The simulacrum obeys your will fully, and if your will is to treat is as expendable, so be it.
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3. A simulacrum is made of ice and snow and is not really alive. Wouldn't it be considered a construct? Should it take +50% damage from fire-based attacks?
A simulacrum is not a true construct, but is rather a semi-real Shadow Illusion made wholly tangible by casting it on snow. Vulnerability to fire is a very reasonable house rule.
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4. If it is a construct, then the Repair __ Damage spells from T&B would then heal it without needing to waste lots of time and money, and the various spells that control/damage constructs would affect it as well.
As it is not a construct in the strict sense of the word, these spells would not work.
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5. If it is copied from a wizard, can the simulacrum still call a familiar or improved familiar just like the original wizard could?
The simulacrum does not have a will of its own, being an illusion of the body and mind of another. An exercise of will is needed in calling and controlling a familiar, so the simulacrum could not do this.
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6. The PHB spell description says the creator can exercise control over the simulacrum, but only directly. Does this mean the simulacrum does as it wishes when alone, so long as it follows the creator's instructions on what it can and cannot do when the creator is not around? Or does it not even need to follow any directions if its creator is not present to give them?
Being a physical and mental copy of a being, the simulacrum would behave more or less as the original would when not ordered to do otherwise.
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7. I assume a simulacrum would behave like the original being it was copied from, with the same reactions, emotional triggers, etc., but can it ever grow in different directions than its progenitor, as it will likely experience a very different future than its creator?
The simulacrum cannot increase in level or abilities. I take this to mean that it does not learn or grow in any substantive manner. It will remain essentially as it was when it was created, forever.
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8. Do the use of able telepathy from a distance (or sending spells, etc.). count as exercising "direct control" over the simulacrum?
According to the SRD: “No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner.” Telepathy qualifies as “some other manner.”
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9. Would the simulacrum of an evil, ambitious person or creature plot to supplant and replace its creator (assuming the creator was not aware of this)?
A simulacrum is a tool, it’s creator the wielder. It is always under the “absolute command” of its creator. It can never plot such an act.
Remember, what we’re dealing with here is a snowman, an illusion. It is a facsimile, and not a very good one at that; 40% to 50% of the original material is missing or illegible. We are not creating new life here, picking up where the Gods left off. We are instead crafting a model of the original work – and the sculptor is only mortal.
Thus ends my two cents.
Dr. Dan
__________________ The ancient Romans built their greatest masterpieces of architecture, their
amphitheaters, for wild beasts to fight in. - Voltaire
Originally posted by Iron_Chef Jeez, the Wizards boards are more responsive than this! Somebody help me out.
After reading this post, I’m not so sure that I’m please with myself for having replied to your query. The EN boards are generally very helpful and a good place for posts like yours. I’ve gotten a lot out of them, but I’ve also been patient when waiting for answers and I try to be polite to those I share the boards with. You would be wise to do the same.
__________________ The ancient Romans built their greatest masterpieces of architecture, their
amphitheaters, for wild beasts to fight in. - Voltaire
Dan, thank you!!! I'd normally be more patient, but I'm in a hurry and all I got prior to your reply was a lengthy thread hijack, which was no help at all, so you can hopefully see why I'd be a bit cranky and bumping the post up.
Okay, still a few questions I need cleared up.
Does the simulacrum know everything that its progenitor knew up until the point (level or HD) it was created at? Or does it merely have a 50% chance of knowing anything its progenitor knew at the time its genetic material was taken for use in its creation by the caster? I really don't understand how this works, and it's vital to how simulacrums can be used.
For example, say you kill a villain who knows a password to get past a magic barrier, and the villain refuses to cooperate when you try speak with dead; you do not have access to legdend lore or vision (your best divination is commune). So creating a simulacrum of the villain would seem to be a brilliant idea to get the villain (or rather his duplicate) to give you the password. But this is not such a good idea f the simulacrum only has a 50% chance of knowing the data you need, or if it did not know the data at the time it was half its HD/level. Help!
SRD: "The simulacrum cannot increase in level or abilities." Levels and stat mod gains are, IMO, not the same thing as the ability to grow and learn, to adapt to changing situations. So, if we assume the simulacrum can absorb new information (which would seem probable, as how else could it properly carry out its master's orders?) what does this mean for the simulacrum, particularly one left to its own devices?
Say a simulacrum's master is killed; would the simulacrum become free-willed or would it be compelled to attempt to carry out its master's last orders?
Last edited by Iron_Chef; 8th July 2003 at 11:29 AM..
Another question: The simulacrum has only 50% (under 3.5e) of the original's knowledge, memory and personality. What makes up the rest of its knowledge, memory and personality? Nothing, or should false memories. false knowledge and random personality traits to fill up the missing 50% be generated? Can the creator designate which 50% of the memory, knowledge and personality of the original remain intact in the simulacrum and which do not? Could the caster then deliberately plant in his simulacrum desired false information, memories and specific personality traits?
Originally posted by Iron_Chef
For example, say you kill a villain who knows a password to get past a magic barrier . . . So creating a simulacrum of the villain would seem to be a brilliant idea to get the villain (or rather his duplicate) to give you the password. But this is not such a good idea f the simulacrum only has a 50% chance of knowing the data you need, or if it did not know the data at the time it was half its HD/level. Help!
The best you’ll ever get is a 50% chance that Mr. Villain Part II knows something like your password. The simulacrum is an imperfect copy at best, and you can expect imperfect results from it. A mean DM might even decide that specific bits of information are lost by default, as you are dealing with a very disconnected illusion of the villain, rather than a clone or other lesser version of the actual being.
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SRD: "The simulacrum cannot increase in level or abilities." Levels and stat mod gains are not the same thing as the ability to grow and learn, and adapt to changing situations.
I disagree. The game mechanic that directly reflects upon a characters increased worldliness and personal growth is the gaining of levels, along with all that comes with it. If a simulacrum cannot gain levels or increase in abilities, then it cannot grow in a substantive manner. The simulacrum may be able to learn the names of people it’s recently met and other such details, but it will never really be more than it is now.
__________________ The ancient Romans built their greatest masterpieces of architecture, their
amphitheaters, for wild beasts to fight in. - Voltaire
Originally posted by Iron_Chef
Another question: The simulacrum has only 50% (under 3.5e) of the original's knowledge, memory and personality. What makes up the rest of its knowledge, memory and personality? Nothing, or should false memories. false knowledge and random personality traits to fill up the missing 50% be generated? Can the creator designate which 50% of the memory, knowledge and personality of the original remain intact in the simulacrum and which do not? Could the caster then deliberately plant in his simulacrum desired false information, memories and specific personality traits?
I’m inclined to say that the other 50% is essentially blank, just static left over from the copying process. The simulacrum could be taught a certain amount of false (or true) information afterward, but it could not be created with it.
__________________ The ancient Romans built their greatest masterpieces of architecture, their
amphitheaters, for wild beasts to fight in. - Voltaire
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Re: [Urgent] Simulacrum questions
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef The Simulacrum spell description in the PHB seems to raise more questions than it answers. Please help me, as the creation of simulacrums is about to factor very heavily in my campaign...
My answers are as how I would handle this in my game, so you or your DM may handle things differently. IMO, YMMV and so forth.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef There's really no end to the trouble this spell could cause, and in a way, it's far superior to clone (especially if you don't plan on dying). Over time, a high level wizard could create a veritable army of simulacrums of herself to function as 100% loyal minions, each with an arsenal of spells. Or she could create bunches of simulacrums from her enemy's most powerful troops to serve as spies, asassins or guardians.
Each one costing 1000 XP, so it is going to get expensive.
Created at 18th level, a simulacrum will be 10th (18*60%=10.8, round down) level, casting 5th level spells.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 1. Does a simulacrum realize that it is not really the person or creature it was copied from? If yes, what effect does this have on its personality? If no, but it is confronted with evidence of its true nature, what effect does this have on its personality?
It only has 60% of the personality. I'd say it realises that something isn't quite right. It probably develops insanity over a greater length of time.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 2. If you create a simulacrum of yourself, how do you explain to the copy what it is, why you made it, why it must obey you, etc.? Is there some way to alter its memory so it will believe it is your "real" twin? What happens if you treat it like an expendable slave?
I suppose your DM could let you use "Modify Memory" or the like. You control it like an expendable slave. Once destroyed, it is gone.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 3. A simulacrum is made of ice and snow and is not really alive. Wouldn't it be considered a construct? Should it take +50% damage from fire-based attacks?
Nope it isn't a construct. Nope, it doesn't take any extra damage from fire-based attacks. It is still vulnerable to Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and the like. It is just like you (if a copy of you).
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 4. If it is a construct, then the Repair __ Damage spells from T&B would then heal it without needing to waste lots of time and money, and the various spells that control/damage constructs would affect it as well.
Nope. It isn't a construct. It is a copy of you, created through magic. A rough approxiamation of yourself.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 5. If it is copied from a wizard, can the simulacrum still call a familiar or improved familiar just like the original wizard could?
It doesn't have XP to spend of its own. So it can't suffer anything if the familiar is lost. I wouldn't let a Simulacrum have a familiar. Not that it is a bad idea. I just wouldn't.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 6. The PHB spell description says the creator can exercise control over the simulacrum, but only directly. Does this mean the simulacrum does as it wishes when alone, so long as it follows the creator's instructions on what it can and cannot do when the creator is not around? Or does it not even need to follow any directions if its creator is not present to give them?
You could rule that it had a sudden desire to tear down the Eiffel Tower, or some such activity it reverts to unless specifically ordered not to.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 7. I assume a simulacrum would behave like the original being it was copied from, with the same reactions, emotional triggers, etc., but can it ever grow in different directions than its progenitor, as it will likely experience a very different future than its creator?
It can't grow. It can't change. It can't learn new things.
that is how I interpret
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from the SRD
The simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 8. Do the use of able telepathy from a distance (or sending spells, etc.). count as excercising "direct control" over the simulacrum?
I'd say yes, but that ability is not provided for by the spell, you must provide that ability.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef 9. Would the simulacrum of an evil, ambitious person or creature plot to supplant and replace its creator (assuming the creator was not aware of this)?
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef Does the simulacrum know everything that its progenitor knew up until the point (level or HD) it was created at? Or does it merely have a 50% chance of knowing anything its progenitor knew at the time its genetic material was taken for use in its creation by the caster? I really don't understand how this works, and it's vital to how simulacrums can be used.
I'd say 50% chance of knowing anything the progenitor knew at the time the genetic material was swiped.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef For example, say you kill a villain who knows a password to get past a magic barrier, and the villain refuses to cooperate when you try speak with dead; you do not have access to legdend lore or vision (your best divination is commune). So creating a simulacrum of the villain would seem to be a brilliant idea to get the villain (or rather his duplicate) to give you the password. But this is not such a good idea f the simulacrum only has a 50% chance of knowing the data you need, or if it did not know the data at the time it was half its HD/level. Help!
The knowledge at half level that the creature had is irrelevant. the spell clearly states that the simulacrum has 51-60% knowledge of the real creature.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef SRD: "The simulacrum cannot increase in level or abilities." Levels and stat mod gains are, IMO, not the same thing as the ability to grow and learn, to adapt to changing situations. So, if we assume the simulacrum can absorb new information (which would seem probable, as how else could it properly carry out its master's orders?) what does this mean for the simulacrum, particularly one left to its own devices?
I think you are overanalysing this. It cannot increase in abilities. It carries out its orders as an automaton. Without passion, without feeling, without moral judgement. Left to its own devices, it may do as it pleases, probably something the original creature had repressed, or seek a way to become a true creature, rather than a copy. Or seek to destroy its creator. It may go mad, it may kill itself.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef Say a simulacrum's master is killed; would the simulacrum become free-willed or would it be compelled to attempt to carry out its master's last orders?
It continues to carry out the last orders. If none, see above. It may not be aware of what it is. It may wonder why it does not recover from wounds as others.
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Originally posted by Iron_Chef Another question: The simulacrum has only 50% (under 3.5e) of the original's knowledge, memory and personality. What makes up the rest of its knowledge, memory and personality? Nothing, or should false memories. false knowledge and random personality traits to fill up the missing 50% be generated? Can the creator designate which 50% of the memory, knowledge and personality of the original remain intact in the simulacrum and which do not? Could the caster then deliberately plant in his simulacrum desired false information, memories and specific personality traits?
Nothing. It has 50% of the memory, knowledge of the original, not 50% of its own knowledge.
A 30 year-old professor in applied physics and a 30 year old alcholic high scool drop out, , do not have the same "amount" of knowledge.
There is no "missing" 50% in the simulacrum.
You cannot implant false information during the creation. Possibly through the apllication of further spells.
![[Urgent] Simulacrum questions](http://www.enworld.org/forum/iconimages/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/urgent-simulacrum-questions_ltr.gif)
I'd normally be more patient, but I'm in a hurry and all I got prior to your reply was a lengthy thread hijack, which was no help at all, so you can hopefully see why I'd be a bit cranky and bumping the post up.
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