If a Balor B summons another balor b and send this last one versus the party...
so if a summoned balor is forced to fight a party without the aid of the summoning balor
1)What is the EL ?
2)What is the CR of the summoned balor b ?
3)How many xp the party will recive?
thx and sorry for my english
Last edited by Enkidu; 3rd March 2004 at 03:46 PM..
All right, one of us is going to have to wear a moustache, or things are going to get confusing around here really quick.
Anyway, in your example, I don't think that I'd be going out on a limb to say that if a single creature of any sort is sent against the PCs and the PCs win, they receive the standard awards - even if that creature is summoned by an indentical creature (as long as both creatures are not fighting the PCs at the same time).
powerful demons can summon other demons with their Summon Tanar'ri ability. Let's say a Balor while fighting the party summons another Balor to get help. The party defeats both of them. As a DM should I reward them as they defeated 2 Balor or only one (the one that summoned the other)?
Just one. The summoning ability is figured into the CR of the single Balor.
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Exactly. Any creature with the ability to summon a monster counts that ability in their CR. A 10th-level Wizard, for example, is only a CR 10, regardless of what monsters he summons. In the same way, if a Balor can summon another Balor, you'd only get experience for the first Balor. The CR system assumes that the first Balor WILL summon the second at some point.
I'll fourth those replies. It's freaky, but that's what's been ruled. If you think the summoned balor really makes it that much more of a killer encounter, give the PCs a little extra XP. Like half CR for the summoned Balor?
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Last edited by Chronosome; 3rd March 2004 at 05:00 PM..
Exactly. Any creature with the ability to summon a monster counts that ability in their CR. A 10th-level Wizard, for example, is only a CR 10, regardless of what monsters he summons. In the same way, if a Balor can summon another Balor, you'd only get experience for the first Balor. The CR system assumes that the first Balor WILL summon the second at some point.
I think you might have missed the point of his question.
Yes the second Balor would not be worth experience under normal circumstances, but what he is asking is:
If Balor A summons Balor B and orders Balor B to attack the party and then teleports away, Is Balor B worth XP for the encounter? According to the rules Summoned creatures are not worth XP so actually according to the rules Balor B would be worth zero xp.
So if I fight a balor, and kill it, I get 1000 XP.
IF I fight a balor,and it summons a balor, and I kill them both, I get 1000XP
If I fight a balor, and it summons a balor, the first one runs away, and I kill the second one. I get 1000 XP
IF I fight a balor, and it summons a balor, and the first one runs away, and I kill the second one. I get 1000 XP. If later the first one comes back, and I kill it, do I get 0XP?
If I fight a balor, and it summons a balor, and it sumons a balor, and it summons a balor. And I kill them all, I get 1000 XP.
If I fight 4 balors, I get a TON of XP.
If I enter a room, and there are 2 balors there, but (unknown to me) one was just summoned by the other, do I get XP based on fighting one, or two of them?
I fight a balor, it teleports away, summons a balor, it summons, it summons, it summons. All 5 teleport back (only 30 seconds later). Do I still only get 1000XP?
Now, a 10th level wizard (as mentioned) is CR 10. But the best he can summon is a CR 5, and that is using his most powerful spell. A CR 5 doesn't do much to make the encounter worse. But a CR 20 summoning another CR20, now *that* makes for a harder encounter.
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The way it has been presented, a summoned creature is included as part of the CR of the creature that summoned it. That means that the reward for killing the summoned creature is included in the reward for killing the summoner.
So, what happens if you kill the summoned creature, but do not kill the summoner? Do you get no experience because you failed to kill the summoner *or* do you gain a portion of the experience for the summoner for defeating a portion of the summoner's strength?
This is not clearly addressed in the DMG, though a quick analysis would tend to point towards no expeirence being granted unless the summoner is defeated (which doesn't necessarily mean killed).
On the other hand, this can lead to some ridiculous results: An evil wizard teleports into a town and begins to summon horrible monsters to slay the local populace. The PCs rush in and fight off the army of monsters. They spend all day battling against all sorts of summoned monsters, but at the end of the day, the receive no experience because the wizard teleported away before they found him?
As a result, I've adopted the position that PCs get half normal experience for summoned creatures up to a total equalling the amount that would be granted for defeating the summoner. If they also defeat the summoner, the experience for killing the summoned creatures is treated as a part of the experience for defeating the caster.
I'd give full XP for one Balor. If the first Balor chooses to summon and leave, he's used his abilities to present a challenge to the party. If the party overcomes that challenge, they deserve XP for defeating it (the original balor, not the summoned one).
In the module City of the Spider Queen there is a precedent for giving character some XP for summoned creatures. In the module, the BBEG tries to use high level spells like summon monster ix to give the party a hard time. These evil outsiders will teleport to the party's location and lay the smack down.
The module recommends giving some XP for the encounter (~50% or so) because the summoned creatures is attacking them completely independent of the BBEG. Furthermore it can't summon other creatures to aid it and it can be dispelled back to its home plane.
Since the rules are a bit unclear concerning this situation, I suggest the following:
If a creature is summoned during combat, you do not get XP for it.
If a creature is summoned out of combat, you get full XP for it because you could not prevent the summoning and have an additional opponent for the whole battle.
One might reduce the XP a bit if the heroes know that the creature was summoned and have access to the appropriate spells to get rid of the creature easily.
thank u so much for help me in this topic u catch the main point even if my bad english ^_^
someone of u say to give some xp for defeat the summoned alone balor b and I'm agree in that cause the party risk for fighting the summoned balor....
but what's the sense, if a party fight a Balor B who in the combat summon another one b...so the party is figthing 2 balor together (CR20) B and b, give the party only xp for killing B ???
while if a party meet first b alone u give some xp (my question is what kinda CR is figthing b ?) then the party kill B in the same day and u give xp for a CR 20 ...the sum of xp is not the same.
Meet first b and then B is more difficult then meet them together ??? why I have to recive less xp fighting them together ?
If we follow in a strict way the rules at page 315 of mm3.5 and at page 37 of dm guide the answers to this thread will be so easy as poor of meaning and sense.
The only solution is the DM decision that will not rapresent in almost cases the rules
Let me edit to say also for people who think to NEVER give xp for killing summoned monster:
What is the difference between a summoned monster and a normal monster ?
If a party meet a girallon, a fire elemental or others animals do u think the first thing the party will do is detect magic,dispel magic, banish ?? to recognize if the monster is a real monster or a summoned monster ?
Do u think it will be easy fight a summoned monster then the original monster ? If u say yes it means that eveytime u meet a monster u use some magic to be sure if it's a summoned one or no
Last edited by Enkidu; 4th March 2004 at 03:11 AM..
On the other hand, this can lead to some ridiculous results: An evil wizard teleports into a town and begins to summon horrible monsters to slay the local populace. The PCs rush in and fight off the army of monsters. They spend all day battling against all sorts of summoned monsters, but at the end of the day, the receive no experience because the wizard teleported away before they found him?
No, because they defeated the wizard's plans. They get XP fort he caster, not for the summoned creatures. As Davelozzi says below...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davelozzi
I'd give full XP for one Balor. If the first Balor chooses to summon and leave, he's used his abilities to present a challenge to the party. If the party overcomes that challenge, they deserve XP for defeating it (the original balor, not the summoned one).
This is RAW, and conherent.
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I'm not sure that the CR system includes the summoned demon for demons. It probably does, but I'm not sure.
The reason I say I'm not sure is because of all of the text about how the Demon is beholden to a creature it summons. So, the Summon ability that a Balor has, is the equivalent of Planar Ally, not Summon Monster. Summon Monster is figured into the CR. I'm not sure that Planar Ally is figured into the CR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimaGabe
Exactly. Any creature with the ability to summon a monster counts that ability in their CR. A 10th-level Wizard, for example, is only a CR 10, regardless of what monsters he summons. In the same way, if a Balor can summon another Balor, you'd only get experience for the first Balor. The CR system assumes that the first Balor WILL summon the second at some point.
Since the rules are a bit unclear concerning this situation...
Actually the rules are very clear, as was mentioned before. Just because some people either don't understand the rules (you don't get XP for monsters, but you do get XP for dfeating the caster/creature who summoned it), or do understand them and don't like them doesn't mean the rules are unclear.
I can't get the SRD open on my work mac, and my books are at home but if you like I'll post a duote and a DMG pg ref later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endur
I'm not sure that the CR system includes the summoned demon for demons. It probably does, but I'm not sure.
The reason I say I'm not sure is because of all of the text about how the Demon is beholden to a creature it summons. So, the Summon ability that a Balor has, is the equivalent of Planar Ally, not Summon Monster. Summon Monster is figured into the CR. I'm not sure that Planar Ally is figured into the CR.
It says quite clearly that the balor has the ability to summon another balor, not call another balor. It's a summon monster ability, not a planar ally one. I'm not sure how a flavour text about one balor being beholden to another changes this? The rules provide for summon monster spells to summon specifc creatures.
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Since casting a dispel magic will get rid of the creature, there's no way I'm giving full xp for a summoned monster. Just because the PCs go about taking it out the hard way doesn't mean its worth mor xp. If the PCs tie their hands behind their backs, would you give them more xp? And, yes, I know they might not be able to easily tell if its summoned, but casting dispel magic on creatures is almost second nature eventually, and I don't like the idea of altering xp based on poor PC decisions.
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