4E Devils

[Dunamin]

I was thinking I’d give it a shot and convert some missing baatezu to 4E, particularly two missing classics: the hamatula (barbed devil) and cornugon (horned devil). My first attempt, however, is the falxugon – my favorite devil from Fiendish Codex 2. To start off with, I set up a table to compare levels between editions to help me decide where to put the missing fiends:

Devil (4E level / 3E CR)
Imp (3/2)
Spinagon (spined devil) (6/4)
Falxugon (harvester devil) (8?/7)
Succubus (9/7)
Kyton (chain devil) (11/6)
Barbazu (bearded devil) (13/5)
Osyluth (bone devil) (17/9)
Hamatula (barbed devil) (18?/11)
Gelugon (ice devil) (20/13)
Malebranche (war devil) (22/14)
Cornugon (horned devil) (24?/16)
Pit Fiend (26 Elite / 20)


Harvester Devil (Falxugon) Level 8 Controller
Medium immortal humanoid (devil) XP 350
Initiative +7 Senses Perception +6; darkvision
HP 88; Bloodied 44
AC 22; Fortitude 17, Reflex 20; Will 22
Resist 20 fire
Speed 6
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Tail Sting (standard; at-will)
+13 vs. AC; 1d8+2 damage.
Corrupt Soul (standard; at-will) * Necrotic
Ranged 10; +12 vs. Will; the target takes 1d8+5 necrotic damage and is weakened (save ends).
Infernal Contract (standard; each contract once per encounter) * Charm, Psychic
Close burst 5, one creature within burst; +12 vs. Will; the target is fooled into believing it has signed a contract with the devil. The target may choose not to follow the terms of the contract, in which case it believes its soul is damned and takes 3d8+5 psychic damage. The devil selects one of the following contracts, each useable once per encounter:

Contract of Treachery: The terms require the target to immediately shift 1 and make a basic attack against an ally, if possible, with a +1d8 bonus to damage.
Contract of Submission: The terms require the target to drop and remain prone until end of the devil’s next turn.
Contract of Cowardice: The terms require the target to not make an attack that includes the devil until end of the devil’s next turn.

Soul Harvest (immediate reaction, when a creature within 10 squares of the harvester devil dies; encounter)
The harvester devil regains 22 hit points and gains +2 to attacks until the end of its next turn.
Change Shape (minor; at-will) * Polymorph
The harvester devil can alter its physical form to take on the appearance of any Medium humanoid, including a unique individual (see Change Shape, page 280).
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Alignment Evil Languages Common, Supernal
Skills Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Insight +11
Str 11 (+4) Dex 17 (+7) Wis 14 (+6)
Con 14 (+6) Int 14 (+6) Cha 21 (+9)


Harvester Devil Tactics
Harvester devils generally avoid battle – they are manipulators and schemers, not warriors. They typically travel with capable bodyguards and aid them when combat is forced upon them. The devil uses change shape to take on the guise of its foes or bodyguards if such a con seems viable, and uses one of its infernal contracts. When all contracts are exhausted the devil relies on corrupt soul to finish the job, though if the battle has gone against it the devil is quick to flee while abandoning allies to their fate.

Design Notes
I followed the guide on p184-185 of the DMG pretty closely, I think, with the supplementary Damage by Level tables.
Ability scores were tricky – I looked mostly at differences between a 3E and 4E succubus to guide me, since that’s a fiend close to the falxugon in focus, role, and power.
Tail Sting and Corrupt Soul should be on par with the Quarterstaff and Poison Ray, respectively, of the Troglodyte Curse Chanter (a level 8 controller [leader]). Necrotic energy is described as “wounding the soul” (PHB p55), so I thought that was fitting for Corrupt Soul.
The Infernal Contracts are meant to capture the basic theme of the falxugon – a devil that tricks mortals into signing a contract that damns their souls. Having this literally happen as a combat power would have consequences well beyond what I think a creature of his level should be able to, so I thought the next best thing would be imagined contracts with harsh punishment for those who break it.
I thought Soul Harvest was fitting within the concept – the falxugon “harvests” the soul of a dead being and becomes stronger for it. Change Shape seemed a no-brainer, when compared to the succubus.

[Dunamin]

Bump. Would be nice with some feedback to see if I'm completely off course, before attempting to do more baatezu.

[Skyscraper]

Hi,

Interesting design. Here are a few thoughts:

Contractor's Pen appears like a very low damage output for a level 8 creature.

Contract violation is interesting but appears a bit complex for little output. Also... "do not use daily powers" is pretty meta-talk.

Soul Harvest appears pretty strong if the Harverster Devil surrounds himself with minions.

Sky

[Dunamin]

Originally Posted by Skyscraper

Contractor's Pen appears like a very low damage output for a level 8 creature.

In comparison, the basic attack of the Foulspawn Grue (also a level 8 controller) deals 1d4+4 and slows (save ends), or if the target is already slowed it dazes (save ends). I initially thought losing the +4 to damage was worth being dazed for a round, but then an effect that remains until a save is made is more potent than one that lasts until end of next turn. I’ll change the damage to 1d4+4.

Originally Posted by Skyscraper

Contract violation is interesting but appears a bit complex for little output. Also... "do not use daily powers" is pretty meta-talk.

Hmm, I agree that it would troublesome expressing this in terms of the game world. Got any suggestions for a replacement?

Originally Posted by Skyscraper

Soul Harvest appears pretty strong if the Harverster Devil surrounds himself with minions.

Soul Harvest is an encounter power, so it’s not exploitable through a horde of minions.

Thanks for the input!

[Skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Dunamin

In comparison, the basic attack of the Foulspawn Grue (also a level 8 controller) deals 1d4+4 and slows (save ends), or if the target is already slowed it dazes (save ends). I initially thought losing the +4 to damage was worth being dazed for a round, but then an effect that remains until a save is made is more potent than one that lasts until end of next turn. I’ll change the damage to 1d4+4.

Gotcha. I haven't compared the damage with others mind you, it just appeared low. I guess the basic attack damage should also be balanced with the whole creature design. The devil doesn't have a big damage output so i guess the +4 is relevant.

Hmm, I agree that it would troublesome expressing this in terms of the game world. Got any suggestions for a replacement?

This is a hard one because a contract with a devil is seen as a role-play situation with long-term consequences.

Hmm.

If i were to suggest anything, i think i'd go with something more, well, evil. We are talking about a devil here So how about:

Contract Violation (standard; recharge ) <> charm, psychic
+ 12 vs Will; target chooses: either it uses an at-will attack against an ally who is a legal target as an immediate reaction, or it takes 2d8 + 5 psychic damage.

Not sure it is worded properly, i took only a few minutes to think it over. Not sure the title is still appropriate, but it's close enough.

Soul Harvest is an encounter power, so it’s not exploitable through a horde of minions.

Right, i hadn't noticed it was encounter, sorry about that. It makes sense as an encounter power, essentially giving this creature second wind.

Edit: you could even give the devil bonuses pursuant to the sould harvest, e.g. either +2 to all defenses or +2 on its attacks and damage until the end of its next turn. This to show that it has gained power temporarily due to this sould harvest.

Sky

[Dunamin]

Originally Posted by Skyscraper

If i were to suggest anything, i think i'd go with something more, well, evil. We are talking about a devil here So how about:

Contract Violation (standard; recharge ) <> charm, psychic
+ 12 vs Will; target chooses: either it uses an at-will attack against an ally who is a legal target as an immediate reaction, or it takes 2d8 + 5 psychic damage.

Very nice! It’s brief and simple, though the damage seems too low - as a recharge power I believe it should use the Limited Damage values on the Damage by Level table. With a more diverse version, I was thinking something like this, though:

Contract Violation (standard; recharge ) * Charm, Psychic
Ranged 5; +12 vs. Will; the target is fooled into believing it has signed a contract with the devil. The devil chooses a term among the following: Attack an ally, hand over a wielded item to the devil, or move adjacent to a creature of the devil’s choice. If the target has not fulfilled the term by the end of its next turn, the target believes its soul is damned and takes 3d10+5 psychic damage.

All of them feel really evil in my opinion; you tell the paladin to strike his friend, the cleric to give up his holy symbol, or the wizard to get over to the nasty brute – or suck it. Because the terms are so harsh, however, I’d peg damage at the medium value on the Damage by Level table.
I realize the power may still be a bit more complex than the norm, but I don’t think it’s too bad - the flavour could be cut from the power description, I suppose. On another note, I’m considering renaming the power to “Read the Fine Print”.

you could even give the devil bonuses pursuant to the sould harvest, e.g. either +2 to all defenses or +2 on its attacks and damage until the end of its next turn. This to show that it has gained power temporarily due to this sould harvest.

Good point – I’ll add +2 to attacks until end of next turn to distinguish it from a simple healing surge.

[Skyscraper]

On Contract Violation or Read the Fine Print, i think both names sound good.

However, i think that the choices are too radically different.

"Attack an ally" may yield a basic, unarmed attack that would deal 1d4 + STR damage. It's that or 3d10+5 psychic damage... no brainer, except for the immersive paladin player.

"Hand over a wielded item" depends on the item; it may be inconsequential or very important. But most importantly, stealing stuff from the PCs can really piss off some players. If the devil flees battle with the PC's item... well, i'm not sure i'd want to go there. Not with this type of creature anyway, this isn't an ethereal filcher, this is a soul harvester.

"Move adjacent to a creature of the devil's choice" i'm not too hot on for a couple of reasons. At the outset, it should include a movement range limit since the action occurs during the devil's turn. If you don't specify a range but use the creature's speed as the parameter, then the devil cannot know the creature's speed and may order an impossible movement. Also, "move" means that the target may provoke OAs. This can be really bad for the target. The alternative would be to have the devil slide the target a number of squares, but then the ability looses its flavor as it becomes much more similar to other forced movement abilities.

My suggestion of 2d8 + 5 was so that the PC would actually have a moral choice to make: will i deal damage which is likely to be 1[W] + bonus to an ally or take what is likely to be a bit more damage (2d8+5) to myself. If the psychic damage is so different from the at-will attack damage (say 3d8 or 4d8 +5 psychic), then most players willl choose the at-will (except, again, the very immersive good paladin players). What i find amusing about the ability that i proposed is that the player will have a moral choice to make. But for that choice to exist, the consequences need to be similar in magnitude.

Of course this is your monster so you do what you want Just providing my opinion here.

For the +2 to attacks, sounds good and indeed it would distinguish from the second wind ability.

Sky

[Dunamin]

Well, seems my inexperience with monster design is showing – your logic is spot on for all the possible terms of the contract.

Originally Posted by Skyscraper

"Attack an ally" may yield a basic, unarmed attack that would deal 1d4 + STR damage. It's that or 3d10+5 psychic damage... no brainer, except for the immersive paladin player.
…
My suggestion of 2d8 + 5 was so that the PC would actually have a moral choice to make: will i deal damage which is likely to be 1[W] + bonus to an ally or take what is likely to be a bit more damage (2d8+5) to myself. If the psychic damage is so different from the at-will attack damage (say 3d8 or 4d8 +5 psychic), then most players willl choose the at-will (except, again, the very immersive good paladin players). What i find amusing about the ability that i proposed is that the player will have a moral choice to make. But for that choice to exist, the consequences need to be similar in magnitude.

You’re absolutely right, the damage gap is too wide.
Still, 2d8+5 seems too low for a recharge power for a monster of this level and role. If I were to lower damage to such a scale, I’d probably also think of making the power recharge on , or perhaps even . However, I’d prefer that having your soul damned to Hell should feel like a serious loss in game terms (even if it’s not technically the real deal), so I’m looking for alternative solutions to low damage.
One option that comes to mind would be to have the power enhance the attack on the ally, something like this:

Contract of Treachery: Target chooses - if possible, make an immediate basic attack against an ally with a +2d8 bonus to damage, or take 4d8+5 psychic damage.

"Hand over a wielded item" depends on the item; it may be inconsequential or very important. But most importantly, stealing stuff from the PCs can really piss off some players. If the devil flees battle with the PC's item... well, i'm not sure i'd want to go there. Not with this type of creature anyway, this isn't an ethereal filcher, this is a soul harvester.

Valid point. The fact that sunder is gone in 4E seems to imply a general design philosophy for 4E that PCs should not be robbed permanently of their favored gear – or at least rarely. However, effects that cause PCs to drop their tools seems alright (an NPC Fighter with the Exorcism of Steel power, for instance). So how about:

Contract of Submission: Target chooses - immediately drop prone and drop wielded weapons and implements or take 3d10+5 psychic damage.

"Move adjacent to a creature of the devil's choice" i'm not too hot on for a couple of reasons. At the outset, it should include a movement range limit since the action occurs during the devil's turn. If you don't specify a range but use the creature's speed as the parameter, then the devil cannot know the creature's speed and may order an impossible movement. Also, "move" means that the target may provoke OAs. This can be really bad for the target. The alternative would be to have the devil slide the target a number of squares, but then the ability looses its flavor as it becomes much more similar to other forced movement abilities.

I was considering rewriting this contract so the target must immediately move its speed toward a target safe square to avoid impossible orders (the possibility for OAs was intentional, by the way). Anyhow, I’m thinking just to drop this one altogether.

Moreover, now I’m thinking “Infernal Contract” may be a more appropriate name, though in my opinion it doesn’t sound quite as good as the other options.

[Skyscraper]

I really like your two options there. Having different contracts with different names is cool and really adds a unique flavor to the devil. I'm unsure if this was your idea at this point, but i'd have all the powers remain distinct and make them encounter powers (as opposed to writing them down under the same rechargeable power). That way, the PCs will taste all of them . Also, one advantage of having three different powers is that you don't need to balance them out relative to one another. I.e. it doesn't matter if Contract of Treachery is stronger than Contract of Submission.

With three different powers, i'd suggest:

Contract of Treachery (standard, encounter) <> charm, necrotic, psychic
Close burst 6; +12 vs Will; one target in burst chooses: devil shifts target one square and target makes an immediate basic attack against an ally with +2d8 necrotic bonus to damage, or target takes 4d8+5 psychic damage.

The one-square shift makes this power more usable by the devil since it doesn't require two adjacent PCs to use against, they can be one square apart.

Contract of Submission (standard, encounter) <> charm, psychic
Close burst 6; +12 vs Will; one target in burst chooses: target drops prone and drops all wielded weapons and implements or takes 2d10+5 psychic damage.

With Contract of Treachery being a higher damage output power, i'd lower the damage output from Contract of Submission (and the third one, see below). In my mind, taking 3d8+5 and even 2d8+5 damage is more important than dropping prone (remember you can get up from prone as a move action and still attack on your round) unless there are many enemies around you and you'll provoke attacks of opportunity. Still, dropping prone may yield OAs, so yes 2d8+5 might be good.

The last contract could be a power such as:

Contract of Cowardice (standard, encounter) <> charm, psychic
Close burst 6; +12 vs Will; one target in burst chooses: devil pushes target 6 squares and target is slowed (save ends), or target takes 3d8+5 psychic damage.

I'm unsure about the distance of the push here. I put 6 squares tentatively. I think it should be such that the usual speed of a melee combattant PC could not allow him to move back and use a melee attack power on his turn, considering the slow effect. The slow effect is there to have the contract linger for a while: you the PC still feels like fleeing and isn't so quick to move where he should

What I really like about all three of those powers is that the nature of the pacts that are proposed are going to nudge at the players' pride. Take damage or yield before what is asked of them by the devil with the associated humiliation? It really makes for a fun dynamic.

You'll note that i suggest making all three powers close bursts instead of ranged attacks. For one thing, I don't see them as ranged attacks really, for me a ranged attack is a bolt or an arrow being shot. Also, the only melee attack that the devil has is his pen attack, which is not very strong. If he is based by a few opponents, he won't be able to use any of his better powers without provoking attacks of opporunity, so i found it useful to have these powers be usable in melee.

Instead of encounter powers, all three contract powers could also be recharge powers, but considering he has three i think encounter is good.

Concerning the pen attack, why is it that it makes the creature dazed? I think i'd have the pen attack deal damage, period. Also, with one contract and the Corrupt Sould attack both having ongoing effects, i'd cut down on ongoing effects. Perhaps the damage of the pen could be increased to 1d8+4 damage. It is a basic attack that would be used only as a last resort anyway after the encounter powers are used up and the better ranged attack is not available.

Sky

[Dunamin]

Originally Posted by Skyscraper

I really like your two options there. Having different contracts with different names is cool and really adds a unique flavor to the devil. I'm unsure if this was your idea at this point, but i'd have all the powers remain distinct and make them encounter powers (as opposed to writing them down under the same rechargeable power). That way, the PCs will taste all of them . Also, one advantage of having three different powers is that you don't need to balance them out relative to one another. I.e. it doesn't matter if Contract of Treachery is stronger than Contract of Submission.

I wholeheartedly agree.
I had initially put contracts under the same recharge power due to the DMG’s advice that monsters generally should have only one encounter or recharge power per tier. However, I noted that the Troglodyte Curse Chanter has 3 (same level and role) and there’s generally an abundance of deviations from the design guide in the MM, so why not do the same for the falxugon (Contract of Submission and Cowardice are not too severe for encounter powers anyway).

I like your modifications to the contracts and the new one, though I’m unsure about damage ranges. Making them bursts seems prudent for the reasons you mentioned, though why set range to 6 specifically?

For the Contract of Submission I just noticed that dropping prone and standing up doesn’t seem to provoke OAs in 4E which makes the power less trouble than I intended – the target just spends a move to get up and a minor action to grab its weapon/implement, making the effect essentially on par with being dazed for a round. The idea is to convey a clear message of submission and humility, so my current take is this:
Contract of Submission (standard, encounter) * Charm, Psychic
Close burst 5, one creature within burst; +12 vs Will; target chooses - target immediately drops prone and cannot stand up until end of the devil’s next turn, or target takes 3d8+5 psychic damage.

The Contract of Cowardice has a nice theme going but the fixed push distance seems a bit awkward. Rather than have the subject flee, cowardice could also just be abstinence from attacking:
Contract of Cowardice (standard, encounter) * Charm, Psychic
Close burst 5, one creature within burst; +12 vs Will; target chooses - target cannot make an attack that includes the devil until end of the devil’s next turn, or target takes 3d8+5 psychic damage.

Originally Posted by Skyscraper

Concerning the pen attack, why is it that it makes the creature dazed? I think i'd have the pen attack deal damage, period. Also, with one contract and the Corrupt Sould attack both having ongoing effects, i'd cut down on ongoing effects. Perhaps the damage of the pen could be increased to 1d8+4 damage. It is a basic attack that would be used only as a last resort anyway after the encounter powers are used up and the better ranged attack is not available.

There’s no vital reason why the pen should daze, though the idea of a pen dealing more than marginal damage sort of irks me. I think I’ll just make the basic melee attack a Tail Sting 1d8+2 (same damage as the trog chanter’s basic), since falxugon tails are described as having a wicked prong.

Now that I look at the current stat block, however, I’m thinking it may be a bit much with 7 separate powers, so I’m considering if I should cut Corrupt Soul and/or Contract of Cowardice (though I think both are nice and appropriate features for this devil).

My current take is in the top post, though after having looked at the Satyr Piper I’m wondering if it isn’t simpler (if unconventional) to use the following expression:

Infernal Contract (standard; each contract once per encounter) * Charm, Psychic
Close burst 5, one creature within burst; +12 vs. Will; the target is fooled into believing it has signed a contract with the devil. The target may choose not to follow the terms of the contract, in which case it believes its soul is damned and takes 3d8+5 psychic damage. The devil selects one of the following contracts, each useable once per encounter:

Contract of Treachery: The terms require the target to immediately shift 1 and make a basic attack against an ally, if possible, with a +1d8 bonus to damage.
Contract of Submission: The terms require the target to drop and remain prone until end of the devil’s next turn.
Contract of Cowardice: The terms require the target to not make an attack that includes the devil until end of the devil’s next turn.

I’ll get busy with the barbed devil / hamatula soon, although it’s fun fine-tuning the falxugon as you get feedback. Thanks again for all the help!

[Skyscraper]

I think your take on the devil is as good as mine at this point. It looks good generally and has a nice feel to it. I admit that it probably has too many powers for a standard creature.

Sky

[AumShantih]

Thanks for starting this thread. Your work looks pretty good so far.
I've worked a bit on converting my favorite devil/dragon/Tiamat servitor, the Abishai to 4th edition.

It can be found here:
http://www.aumshantih.org/tiki/tiki-...ster+-+Abishai

It's a work in progress, and I'll probably playtest them in my weekly Planescape tabletop soon enough and make modifications.

[Dunamin]

Nice ones!

A few suggestions:

Though devils had loads of immunities and resistances in 3E, it seems the baseline is just resist fire 20 in 4E. I’m thinking abishais ought to have that as well as resist 10 with regards to their respective element. Not that I’m particularly traditionalist-minded but why use non-natural weapons, by the way?

I think I like your Infernal Strength power at the end more than the dragon breath; the latter does emphasize their allegiance to Tiamat, but regeneration seems a staple trait from previous editions.
If you're set on making regeneration only appear as a situation-dependent power, I'd note it to only last until end of encounter. I'd also bump the value up - regeneration 1 is fairly insignificant when the critter has 55-79 hp.

[AumShantih]

Thanks a lot for the advice! Abishai are unlikely to make an appearance in my campaign for another few weeks or so, so I'll have time to make a revision before then.

The weaponry is a nod to the 1st Edition Abishai from Monster Manual II, where each abishai had its own traditional fighting style. (Yes, I'm one of those old skool gamers..)

[Dunamin]

Alright, so here's a loose draft on the hamatula. I think I put down the basics of what I want in such a 4E version, though it's missing something... Probably another power. I'm also unsure about how it balances out - feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Barbed Devil (Hamatula) Level 18 Soldier
Medium immortal humanoid (devil) XP 2000
Initiative +15 Senses Perception +16; darkvision
HP 175; Bloodied 87
AC 34; Fortitude 32, Reflex 32; Will 30
Resist 20 fire
Speed 6
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Claw (standard; at-will) * Fear
+25 vs. AC; 2d8+7 damage, and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends).
Impale (standard; recharge )
+25 vs. AC; 3d10+6 damage, and the target is grabbed; see also piercing embrace.
Barbed Defense
When an adjacent creature hits the devil with a melee attack, the creature takes 1d10 damage.
Piercing Embrace
When a creature is grabbed or starts its turn grabbed by the devil, it takes 10 damage and receives a -2 penalty to escape the grab.
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Alignment Evil Languages Common, Supernal
Skills Endurance +20, Intimidate +18, Stealth +21
Str 25 (+16) Dex 25 (+16) Wis 14 (+11)
Con 23 (+15) Int 12 (+10) Cha 19 (+13)