How would you write Curse of the Bloody Fangs to make sense?

[Bagpuss]

Curse of the Bloody Fangs Warlock Attack 5

You call up a pack of ferocious, phantasmal beasts from the darkest and most savage depths of the Feywild. Only their slavering fangs appear in this world, snapping and rending in a mad frenzy at the foe you have cursed.
Daily Arcane, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + Charisma modifier damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Sustain Minor: The target and any of your enemies adjacent to it take 1d10 damage (save ends).
__________________________________________

Problems: It has no listed duration, so the damage is instantaneous, which means there is no effect to sustain.

Even if there was an effect, that was available to sustain, why how would a (save ends). Since 1d10 is not ongoing damage (ongoing damage has to be static not variable), why is a (save ends) even needed?

The easiest fix is to remove the Sustain Minor but that makes it a little dull, and makes it pretty weak for a level 5 daily.

Customer Services Response: To the quesion (How does Curse of the Bloody Fangs work?)
Unfortunately, there isn’t an official answer for the situation you describe. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!

So come on DM's what's your best fix?

[Fredrik Svanberg]

An even easier fix is to remove the "(save ends)", which doesn't make sense.

[Bagpuss]

That doesn't fix the fact it can't be sustained, as there is not lasting effect.

[The Little Raven]

Originally Posted by Bagpuss

That doesn't fix the fact it can't be sustained, as there is not lasting effect.

If you took off "(save ends)," you'd have a sustain power that deals 1d10 damage to the target and any enemies adjacent to them.

[Pickles JG]

If this was Warmachine the power would have something like the line:-

Effect: Target is Nibbled (save ends)

Sustain(minor) Only if the target is Nibbled: target & adjacent enemies take 1d10 damage.

That is also the way I would read it working in D&D4.0 but it is obviously coloured by my Warmachine roots (ie a fair bit of inference).

Hmm in fact in the D&D version I am not sure if you get a save before the caster's next turn - can you save before you have been effected? Here is the more fiddly version:-

Effect: Target is Nibbled until the end of your next turn.

Sustain(minor) Only if the target is Nibbled or Chewed: target & adjacent enemies take 1d10 damage & target is Chewed (save ends)

Note that by doing this sort of thing Warmachine has entered the realms of TOO FIDDLY FOR MANY & D&D perhaps does not want to go the same way.

[Scalding]

I have seen several powers like this. It seems to me that the obvious intention of (save ends) is that once the target has saved, you can no longer sustain the power.

[Lizard]

This makes sense as written to me...

Warlock cast spell. Target is bitten. There's little magic jaws all around him. Snap snap!

On the start of the monster's next turn, he and and anything adjacent to him get chomped.

At the end of his next turn, he rolls a save. If he succeeds, the jaws vanish. If he fails, on MY turn, I can choose to spend my minor action to keep sustaining the spell, or not.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by The Little Raven

If you took off "(save ends)," you'd have a sustain power that deals 1d10 damage to the target and any enemies adjacent to them.

No you wouldn't. Because for you to be able to sustain a power it needs to last at least until the end of your next turn. You cannot sustain a power that isn't in effect, and this effect is instantaneous. So as written this power cannot be sustained.

[Eldritch_Lord]

Originally Posted by Bagpuss

No you wouldn't. Because for you to be able to sustain a power it needs to last at least until the end of your next turn. You cannot sustain a power that isn't in effect, and this effect is instantaneous. So as written this power cannot be sustained.

That comes about because the generic rules about sustaining powers are horribly written. It also mentions "effect" in the Sustain rules rather than "power," so you could argue that only things in the "Effect" line can be sustained. Really, the wording sucks on that.

However, specific overrides general when there's a contradiction. So, regardless of the normal rules for sustaining, I'd say you can in fact sustain this power thanks to the wonders of exceptions-based design, everyone's favorite buzzword (buzzphrase?). The (save ends) basically makes sense--"while(caster.sustainSpell() && !target.saves()) {caster.sustainSpell();}" if you will--though I don't think it's necessary for balance.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by Pickles JG

If this was Warmachine the power would have something like the line:-

Effect: Target is Nibbled (save ends)

Sustain(minor) Only if the target is Nibbled: target & adjacent enemies take 1d10 damage.

That is also the way I would read it working in D&D4.0 but it is obviously coloured by my Warmachine roots (ie a fair bit of inference).

Hmm in fact in the D&D version I am not sure if you get a save before the caster's next turn - can you save before you have been effected? Here is the more fiddly version:-

Effect: Target is Nibbled until the end of your next turn.

Sustain(minor) Only if the target is Nibbled or Chewed: target & adjacent enemies take 1d10 damage & target is Chewed (save ends)

Note that by doing this sort of thing Warmachine has entered the realms of TOO FIDDLY FOR MANY & D&D perhaps does not want to go the same way.

I think you are closest to a decent write up, and I've seen powers written in a similar way.

Curse of the Bloody Fangs Warlock Attack 5

You call up a pack of ferocious, phantasmal beasts from the darkest and most savage depths of the Feywild. Only their slavering fangs appear in this world, snapping and rending in a mad frenzy at the foe you have cursed.
Daily Arcane, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + Charisma modifier damage plus 5 ongoing damage (save ends).
Miss: Half damage and no ongoing damage.
Sustain Minor: As long as the target is taking ongoing damage from this power target and any of your enemies adjacent take 1d10 damage.

You now have an ongoing effect so the power is eligible for a Sustain effect. If that ongoing effect is saved against then the Sustain effect can no longer be used.

[jdpacheco]

Originally Posted by Scalding

I have seen several powers like this. It seems to me that the obvious intention of (save ends) is that once the target has saved, you can no longer sustain the power.

This would be the way to interpret this...

Basically: As a minor action, do more damage (and the power doesn't end). The target has the option/opportunity on each of its turns to "get you out of its head" and thus end the effect.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by Eldritch_Lord

That comes about because the generic rules about sustaining powers are horribly written. It also mentions "effect" in the Sustain rules rather than "power," so you could argue that only things in the "Effect" line can be sustained. Really, the wording sucks on that.

Ignore the semantics of "effect" or "power", you cannot Sustain a power that isn't active. As the spell as written has no duration, it is instantaneous and so isn't active when it gets round to your turn again, thus cannot be sustained.

However, specific overrides general when there's a contradiction.

There is no specific in this case as just because a power can be sustained does not grant it any extra duration.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by jdpacheco

Basically: As a minor action, do more damage (and the power doesn't end).

The problem is it already has ended since it has no duration listed.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by Bagpuss

The problem is it already has ended since it has no duration listed.

P 278 says that powers which are "conditional" or "sustained" have durations. The implication is that if it has a "Sustained" section, it has a duration.

(4e rules could have used a second editing pass: Film at 11.)

[Cadfan]

While it may not be the best technical writing ever, the power as written is very clear in terms of how it should work in game.

I figured this would actually be about the fact that its an implement attack against AC. I haven't figured out yet what I think about that. I'm not sure whether its necessary for balance with a power like this, or whether it wrecks the power in comparison to other possible choices.