Dear Unregistered! We notice you don't currently have a silver subscription here on EN World. We'd love to encourage you to give it a try, so we've made this coupon for $5 off your first 4-month Silver Subscription. Simply go to the subscription page and enter coupon code SILVER. With that subscription you get access to TWO adventure paths, which between them cover D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, and D&D 4th Edition - War of the Burning Sky (which has been completed) and ZEITGEIST: The Gears of Revolution (which is currently ongoing). You also get a whole bunch of site perks and features here on EN World, including access to the Search function, images and links in your forum signature, a larger PM box, give out more XP at a time, and more. Please give a try; we're proud of our adventure paths, and we're sure you'll love them both!
D&D 4th Edition DiscussionDiscuss D&D 4E rules and house rules in here.
All the latest EN World
official reviews, columns, and subscriber articles here.
Don't have your subscription yet? It's only $3 a month and you can grab
it right
here!
4E Skill Challenges - An Exercise in Dice Rolling?
As written, skill challenges seem like little more than an exercise in dice rolling. Am I missing something here? How should they be run? Take the following two examples:
Example 1: PC is trying to convince Baron Humphrey to allow him to examine the tapestry of ages for clues to the tomb of Zuxor
DM: You are led into the Baron's chambers. Make a Diplomacy check. The DC is 20.
Player: (rolling) I got a 22.
DM: Cool. A servant leads you away to examine the tapestry.
Example 2: PC is trying to convince Baron Humphrey to allow him to examine the tapestry of ages for clues to the tomb of Zuxor
DM: You are led into the Baron's chambers. "What can I do for you brave adventurer?"
Player: Hmm...I guess I will try Diplomacy. "I ask of you but a small boon Baron. I simply wish to view the tapestry of ages for but a few moments. I assure you that this may bring both fame to your domain - and riches for us both". (rolling) I got a 22.
DM: Cool. "Why. You can certainly view the tapestry good man. Let me call Rodrick." A servant leads you away to examine the tapestry.
Which example is right? Neither? What SHOULD I be doing?
I would prefer the second way you gave myself. There isn't a strictly correct way to do it though.
Skill challenges are not normally simple skill checks as your actual examples implied though, they are a collection of skill checks used creatively to accomplish an overall goal.
To make a skill challenge out of seeing the Tapestry, more than a single die roll would be required. You might need History to bring up relevant reasons as to why it is important you look at it. You might need Diplomacy to remind the man of your past services. You might need to use Nature to draw a correlation between the giant tribe you fought earlier with the events depicted on the tapestry, or the material it is purported to be made from.
Generally for social encounters, the other party is very reluctant to let you do things your way, or else really represents investigating and interviewing multiple people such as in a party setting.
You can see more examples in some of the free Dungeon adventures here: Issue Archive
Dungeon 158 was the last free to download one. You can see the page numbers and short descriptions of various skill challenges in the link in my signature for the "Master Index."
I generally frown upon requiring a bunch of anti-social gamers to try to play out the charisma of their characters. That's usually when the games I attend end up being about who can make the most fart jokes. Because funny knows no awkwardness.
I understand that. I was just trying to give a brief example of the mechanic and not a complete skill challenge. What bugs me is that the way skill challenges are written, they just boil down to a string of dice rolls. Where is the 'challenge' or the fun! Why not just flip a coin until you get X number of heads or tails?
Combat boils down to a string of die rolls interspersed with tactics. In a skill challenge, your skill choices and descriptions become the tactics. If you don't like them, don't use them, but there's very little difference between skill challenges and combat at their most basic level, eventually you can just flip a coin on both of them.
A good skill challenge, like a good fight, should present a number of potential outcomes and pitfalls that emerge because of the players' choices.
It's all too easy to set up skill challenges like overly complicated skill checks, with the players on one side, a pile of dice rolls in the middle, and the outcome everyone expects on the other.
You can get away with that in a fight, because the players get to have fun using their powers and beating down monsters. In a skill challenge, though, it's dull. Everyone is just rolling dice, waiting to either succeed or fail.
What I'd do:
1. The sooner you start the skill challenge, the more complications and branching paths you can create.
2. Create scenes and choices that flow from the characters' decisions.
3. Be nimble enough to handle a few different outcomes.
Using your example: the PCs want to look at the baron's tapestry.
Scene 1: How are the PCs going to get into the throne room?
Streetwise -> Success gives the PCs a map of the sewers and a secret passage into the throne room.
Diplomacy -> The PCs can arrange for an audience through a merchant prince, but now they owe him a favor (to be cashed in at the DM's whim).
Bluff -> The PCs can pose as visiting dignitaries. In fact, the baron is expected a famous horticulturalist to visit his gardens, and the gnome rogue in the party happens to look just like him...
You can then build three new paths for each choice, each keying off a skill. The key is that the PCs don't necessarily know where a skill take them, and multiple success give them more options (the PCs might find the sewer map and meet the merchant who can do them a favor. Which path do they follow?)
You can also have paths diverge and converge as needed. For instance, the captain of the watch might be open to a bribe, and that could come up if the PCs sneak into the palace and are caught or if they pose as the horticulturalist.
My rules of thumb are:
* Three scenes, each with three paths. You have your set up (how can we get access to the tapestry?), the meat of the challenge (execute the plan to get to the tapestry), and then any repercussions (dodging any negative repercussions of getting to the tapestry).
* One check per NPC or obstacle, unless you are 100% sure that more than one check is still interesting.
* Failure should end the challenge and put a new obstacle before the PCs. Plus, failure can mean more than stopping short of your goal. Regardless of what happens, the PCs might get access to the tapestry, but they could end up accused of breaking into the palace, thrown into jail, in debt to one or more folks, and so on.
The really fun thing for a DM when it comes to skill challenges is that you have a ton of options for making failure an interesting part of the game. Failing at a fight is pretty much always the same - the PCs are dead, captured, or running for their lives. Failing in a skill challenge can set up even more interesting complications, barriers, and challenges.
__________________ Mike Mearls - Group Manager, Dungeons & Dragons RPG R&D
Wizards of the Coast - http://www.wizards.com Retro Stupid and proud of it.
Holy Crap! I never expected to hear from you Mike! Thanks so much for your detailed advice. I will try your three scenes/three paths rule and post again after I have tried it in a game.
One thing I like to do with skill challenges is to give the players an opportunity to exercise their creativity and imagination. I'll still make them roll the dice, but the key objective is to get the players to come up with out of the box ways to deal with the situation they are presented with. It's basically a freeform problem with a more structured resolution system.
One thing I like to do with skill challenges is to give the players an opportunity to exercise their creativity and imagination. I'll still make them roll the dice, but the key objective is to get the players to come up with out of the box ways to deal with the situation they are presented with. It's basically a freeform problem with a more structured resolution system.
Agreed. IMO skill challenges will ultimately succeed or fail for a group of players based on whether it inspires them to do some creative problem solving while roleplaying their characters. Towards that end, the players should come to understand that the DM is likely to give them the benefit of the doubt if they make a spirited effort to use all their resources to solve a problem.
__________________ Stone Bear thinks, "Ain't no kind of rumbling behind you that issues forth from a kuo-toa city can be a good thing..."
Eve: “Why don’t you have any eyes?”
Stone Bear: “Hungry pets.”
In our group, we go along the lines of the OP's second example. We RP our responses, and then do a roll along with it. Then our DM will award a bonus of +/- 2 depending on how our RP was. So it's not just a dice roll, and you can still get a good result even if you're not that strong of an RPer.
Hey Mike, while we're on the subject of skill challenges, what method do you use to determine the right DCs?
I usually use the DCs from the book, but keep in mind that I try to revolve a challenge through a number of different skills. The DCs tend to become too easy if you let the players hit on the same skill again and again, particularly if they have optimized for that skill.
When I need to make a DC on the fly, I use a simple rule of thumb:
10 + half level + 5 if I think that a character with skill training should succeed half the time + the stat mod of a character who should succeed half the time.
Basically, I picture the character who should succeed 50% of the time, and build a DC to fit him.
Also, I am somewhat liberal in handing out automatic successes (and the occasional failure) for really good or really bad ideas. Otherwise, I reward ideas with check modifiers.
__________________ Mike Mearls - Group Manager, Dungeons & Dragons RPG R&D
Wizards of the Coast - http://www.wizards.com Retro Stupid and proud of it.
Holy Crap! I never expected to hear from you Mike! Thanks so much for your detailed advice. I will try your three scenes/three paths rule and post again after I have tried it in a game.
I hope it works out for you! I've been doing a lot of thinking about skill challenges for the series on them I'm writing for Dragon, and this seemed like a good place to air a few of them.
I think skill challenges are a place where everyone, from staff designers to complete newbie DMs, are still learning the ropes.
__________________ Mike Mearls - Group Manager, Dungeons & Dragons RPG R&D
Wizards of the Coast - http://www.wizards.com Retro Stupid and proud of it.
I think Mike's point can be summed up this way....put a little oomph in your skill challenges.
You shouldn't take the old scene where you would roll a few diplomacy checks and turn that into a skill challenge. A skill challenge should be a big deal, an important part of the adventure. Treat a good skill challenge like a good fight, and plan some different dynamics.
Recent News
Keep on the Shadowfell Character Errata Thread
Linear Mode
