Hobgoblin Slavemaster - Lvl. 3 Elite Controller

[Dr_Ruminahui]

This is my first attempt at creating my own monster, so I would appreciate any comments anyone might have. No need for kid gloves, though - if you don't like it, feel free to tell me so, so long as you also tell me why.

Thank you in advance, Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear.

PS: Darren from Edmonton - don't read!


Hobgoblin Slavemaster

Even more than other Hobgoblin's, the Slavemaster is a natural tyrant and seeks to subjugate others. Any under them soon learns to fear the lash of their whip.

Hobgoblin Slavemaster Level 3 Elite Controller
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 300
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +8; low light vision
HP 92; Bloodied 46
AC 19; Fortitude 19, Reflex 15, Will 15
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6
Action Points: 1

Battleaxe (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Basic Melee +8 vs AC; 1D10 + 4 damage
Add 1D6 damage if the Slavemaster has combat advantage against the target. If after the Slavemaster makes a Whip Choke or Whip Trip attack, the target ends adjacent to the Slavemaster and is immobilized or prone, the Slavemaster may make a Battleaxe attack as a immediate free action.

Whip Choke (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Melee Reach 2; +7 vs Fortitude; 1d4 + 4 damage
Target is immobilized (save ends) and Slavemaster may pull target to the nearest space adjacent to the Slavemaster. While target remains immobilized, the Slavemaster gains combat advantage against the target but may not use Whip Choke, Whip Trip or Whip Crack. Also see Battleaxe.

Whip Trip (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Melee Reach 2; +7 vs Reflex; 1d4 + 4 damage
Target is knocked prone. Also see Battleaxe.

Whip Crack (standard; recharge 56) (Weapon, Fear)
Close blast 2; +8 vs AC; 1D4 + 4 damage
Anyone hit by the whip crack may not voluntarily move adjacent to the Slavemaster and suffers a -2 to all rolls to hit the Slavemaster (save ends).

Hobgoblin Resilience (immediate reaction, encounter, when the Slavemaster suffers an effect that save can end): The Slavemaster rolls a saving throw against the effect.

Tyrant's Ire (immediate reaction; encounter, when first bloodied) The Slavemaster's Whip Crack recharges and the Slavemaster uses it immediately, even if Whip Choke would normally prevent it doing so. If the Slavemaster currently has a target immobilized as a result of its Whip Choke attack, the effect immediately ends.

Alignment: Evil Languages: Common, Goblin
Skills: Athletics +10, Intimidate +8, Endurance +8
Str 19 (+5) Dex 15 (+3) Wis 12 (+2)
Con 14 (+3) Int 10 (+1) Cha 15 (+3)

Equipment: Battleaxe, whip, hide armour, keys

[Mesh Hong]

I really like this tyrant, he has a lot of character for what is basically a simple concept.

If anything he might be slighty underpowered, but that really depends on what level PCs will be facing him, and what sort of support he has.

The only thing I would consider changing is:

Whip Crack (standard; recharge 56) (Weapon, Fear)
Close blast 2; +8 vs AC; 1D4 + 4 damage
Anyone hit by the whip crack may not voluntarily move adjacent to the Slavemaster and suffers a -2 to all rolls to hit the Slavemaster (save ends).

I might change it to:

Whip Crack (standard; recharge ) weapon, fear
Burst 2; enemies only; attack +8 vs. AC; 2d6+4 damage; on hit target may not voluntarily move adjacent to Slavemaster and takes a -2 penalty to hit on attacks against Slavemaster (save ends both)

[Fede]

I would change whip choke this way:

Whip Choke (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Melee Reach 2; +7 vs Fortitude; 1d4 + 4 damage
Target is pulled to the nearest space adjacent to the Slavemaster and is grabbed (until escape). While target remains grabbed, the Slavemaster gains combat advantage against the target but may not use Whip Choke, Whip Trip or Whip Crack. Also see Battleaxe.

Basically, instead of being save ends it grabs the target and lasts until the target escapes.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Thank you both for your suggestions - they both were exactly the kind of thing I was looking for!

Fede, I agree having the target grabbed is what I wanted and after rereading the grab mechanic, it works perfectly. Additionally, it allows the Slavemaster to move and haul its victim after it, which is very evocative - I may add a rule so that the grabbed target takes damage if it does so, or allow him to do so as a move rather than a standard. That said, I am wary of adding an additional rule to what is already a fairly lengthy profile.

Mesh Hong, I agree that it may well be underpowered - I plan to use him versus a level 3 party of 4 or 5 members who aren't particularly min-maxed, and throwing in a variety of other goblinoids as well. Mostly, I intend to use him as someone the party can really hate, if only for this particular encounter - he will be coup-de-grasing players if he gets the chance, pushing chains of slaves off cliffs to hopefully slow the party down (hoping they will try to save the slaves), and attempting to chop down a rope bridge as the party crosses it.

That said, he can do 1D10+1D6+1D4+8 damage with one standard action (Whip Choke/Trip + free Battle Axe attack), though admittedly this requires 2 successful hit rolls. Perhaps I should make the + to hit the same for his whip attacks (which go against reflex/fort) to allow more of the fun/annoying stuff and give him more chances to inflict the big damage with the axe?

The Whip Crack (should probably be Whip Fury) is pretty wimpy, but I wanted it more for defence, as with his relatively low AC I really need him to be able to prevent PCs from ganging up on him. BTW, I like the other changes you did to it, I'm just not sure about the added damage or changing it from being a close blast. I picture it as him lashing the whip about his head, catching his enemies with it as he does so - as its a whip, I want to keep it D4s, and the way I imagine it in my head its kind of a stretch for it to be even 2[W].

How about if I made it a minor action doing 2D4+4 and refreshing on a 456? Or is it now too powerful?

Thank you again for your imput, you two - I think it is really helping me tweak the Slavemaster to play as I want it. Additionally, I'm glad you guys find the concept as evocative as I do - hopefully my players will absolute loathe him.

Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

[Mesh Hong]

I would change whip choke this way:

Whip Choke (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Melee Reach 2; +7 vs Fortitude; 1d4 + 4 damage
Target is pulled to the nearest space adjacent to the Slavemaster and is grabbed (until escape). While target remains grabbed, the Slavemaster gains combat advantage against the target but may not use Whip Choke, Whip Trip or Whip Crack. Also see Battleaxe.

Basically, instead of being save ends it grabs the target and lasts until the target escapes.

I agree with you on this Fede, this is the usual way of doing things, and most probably the angle I would have approached from. The way that Dr_Rhuminahui proposed, however unconventional, is still workable and achieves the desired effect. That is the reason I didn't comment on it.

A side effect of using the grab mechanic is that someone with the Acrobatics skill is going to have a much easier time escaping than someone with Athletics. A level 3 PC training in the skill with a +3 stat will require a roll of 6 (acrobatics) or 10 (athletics), I would bear this in mind and if your group has a lot of athletics or acrobatics training add a +2 difficulty to the escape roll.

Whip Choke (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Melee Reach 2; +7 vs Fortitude; 1d4 + 4 damage
Target is pulled to the nearest space adjacent to the Slavemaster and is grabbed (-2 penalty to escape check). While target remains grabbed, the Slavemaster gains combat advantage against the target but may not use Whip Choke, Whip Trip or Whip Crack. Also see Battleaxe.



I will explain why I think this guy might be slightly underpowered.

An elite usually has a double attack, usually his basic attack twice. This allows him to be as effective as 2 standard creatures.

In this case it would be 2 Battleaxe attacks,
(assuming both attacks hit)
2x 1d10+4 or 5 minimum / 24 max damage.

Your creature does have a double attack option, with the whip then the free battleaxe attack (with the extra damage).
(assuming both attacks hit)
1d4+4 + 1d10+4 +1d6 or 11 minimum / 28 max damage.

But your double attack option will not be available every turn, therefore your elite may not have the same potencial as another level 3 elite. I am going to the trouble of explaining my logic for clarity, in this case I don't think your guy is that underpowered as his damage range makes up for the loss of availability.

A lot of the guys powers rely on him having the whip free, he would gain more each round from releasing the grab (free action), taking a step back (move action) and Whip Choke & Battleaxe comboing again. This might seem a bit cheesy to your players, then again it is another reason to HATE him.

This potencial tactic led me to think of changing the Whip Trip to a once a round minor action, and removing the damage and free battleaxe attack.

Whip Trip (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Melee Reach 2; +7 vs Reflex; on hit target is knocked prone.

This would be annoying, but not damaging, and would stop the PCs from just stepping up to the creature and using a big attack. Now they would probably be prone 2 squares away so would have to stand up (move action) then charge (standard, basic attack). Again this would really fuel some HATRED.



The Whip Crack I pictured as swinging the whip in a arc round his head, which would therefore effect the whips reach (2) all round him. I think this fits Burst exactly.

This is a standard action attack so it should be as effective or better than its other standard attacks, or else it would never use it. It is a 5,6 recharge power so it should be a worthwile attack. However it has the potencial to hit more than 1 target so it shouldn't be as damaging to compensate.

I stand by my version of the power, but that is all it is, my version. If you don't like it then change it as you see fit.

Thinking more about how this guy works I might go one step further and add a push effect to it, to simulate the PCs stepping back out of reach of the cruel lash.

Whip Crack (standard; recharge ) weapon, fear
Burst 2; enemies only; attack +8 vs. AC; 2d6+4 damage; on hit target is pushed 2 squares, may not voluntarily move adjacent to Slavemaster and takes a -2 penalty to hit on attacks against Slavemaster (save ends both)

Anyway, as always these are just my thoughts and opinions. What do you think?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Ah, now I see where you are coming from - and yes, you explained yourself very clearly.

Myself, from my experience looking at and using lower heroic elites, have not found that elites have basically double the attacks. Which was confirmed by my quick perusal of the MM since reading your post. However, given that I have generally found elites to be somewhat underwealming/not worth their XP, I will certainly agree that even if elites DON'T have double the attacks, they SHOULD.

Now, onto the rest of your post.

Thank you for the comment re: escape and skill checks. It shouldn't be a problem, though - no one in the group has acrobatics, and only 2 have athletics. Which, on second though, might be a problem - I certainly think it should be easier to escape from the whip grab than, say, the hold of a bugbear strangler.

You raise a lot of interesting points, and although I'm going to disagree with many of them, I still find your input yery valuable.

I agree with you that using his whip is a lot better for him, but I don't think that's a problem. It might be if he was on his own, but instead I intend to combine him with (if I have 4 players) a couple of hobgoblin soldiers, 2 goblin minions and a goblin cutter. Basically, his abilities allow him to draw a single PC into the middle of the group and then hold the PC there - which IMHO is quite powerful. Plus, should he want to, he can always release the grab - I don't see him like a bugbear strangler, who grabs someone and doesn't let go, but as more of a controller, influencing the PCs so that his goblin cohorts can gang up on them.

Now, if I had his whip automatically do damage on a sustain, that would deal with the problem you describe, but I think it would make the monster less tactically interesting.

On the subject of his Whip Trip, I'm reluctant to change it in that in that I see it now as an equal option to the Whip Choke - he uses the Choke if the PC isn't adjacent to him, and the Trip if the PC is. I guess that's also why I'm reluctant to make the Choke better - I want them to be 2 equal but different tactical options - though I admit minor trip and a standard choke would likely be more annoying.

As for the "cheesy" tactic of hitting an enemy, immbolizing/tripping them, then shifting away... I had already planned on using it.

Now, onto the Whip Crack - I think we have the same thing in mind in terms of its area of effect, I just think you are using the wrong term.

Now, my understanding of the rules is that a Blast 2 would be like Burning hands, and look something like this (O is Slaver, - x is affected space:

xx
xx
o

Whereas, what I think we both want is a close burst 2, which looks like this:
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxoxx
xxxxx
xxxxx

Now, I definitely agree that I need to make it better than a standard action, as it is a 56 recharge power. That said, I am still uncomfortable with boosting the damage. Nor do I think that the push effect is what I want - not only is it too powerful for the encounter I'm designing (which is on a ledge above a chasm), but I don't see it as forcing the PCs back as much as forcing them to duck and keep their heads down.

What if I gave it a MISS effect of allowing a Whip choke or trip attack against one target missed by the Whip Crack? That would allow it to boost its defences against a bunch of PCs and damage them lightly, while STILL being able to do one of its nasty whip combos against a PC who wasn't smart enough to duck?

Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Deleted the double post it made for some reason

[Mesh Hong]

Its fine that you disagree with my opinions, if we all saw things the same way all the time life would be very dull.

At the end of the day it is a creature for your game, and only you know what is right and wrong for your group. I have a group of 6 PCs who are pretty lethal, and I only use my own monsters. This has no doubt clouded my judgement on what is a 'standard creature' or a 'normal challange'. Also a group of 4 PCs will operate slightly differently than a group of 6.

Originally Posted by Dr_Ruminahui

Now, onto the Whip Crack - I think we have the same thing in mind in terms of its area of effect, I just think you are using the wrong term.

Now, my understanding of the rules is that a Blast 2 would be like Burning hands, and look something like this (O is Slaver, - x is affected space:

xx
xx
o

Whereas, what I think we both want is a close burst 2, which looks like this:
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxoxx
xxxxx
xxxxx

Your original design stated Close Blast 2 (the first diagram) which I proposed changing to Burst 2 (the second diagram). You contradict yourself by saying that I am using the wrong term then say that we both want the Burst 2.

Originally Posted by Dr_Ruminahui

Now, I definitely agree that I need to make it better than a standard action, as it is a 56 recharge power. That said, I am still uncomfortable with boosting the damage. Nor do I think that the push effect is what I want - not only is it too powerful for the encounter I'm designing (which is on a ledge above a chasm), but I don't see it as forcing the PCs back as much as forcing them to duck and keep their heads down.

What if I gave it a MISS effect of allowing a Whip choke or trip attack against one target missed by the Whip Crack? That would allow it to boost its defences against a bunch of PCs and damage them lightly, while STILL being able to do one of its nasty whip combos against a PC who wasn't smart enough to duck?

Yes, I can see that pushing the PCs around when high on a ledge might be a bit dangerous.

Personally I would be uncomfortable with adding a whip choke or trip attack to a miss event on an area attack, as you would be punishing a PC for not getting hit. And if the Hobgoblin did a choke it could drag the PC in and do its Axe combo, which is far nastier than the original missed attack.

You seem to be reluctant to move away from 1d4 style damage for the whip. Fair enough, but why don't you say it has a magic effect that only operates on a Whip Crack attack. A thunder effect would be very appropriate as it snaps back in his wrist, you could use this to add some damage and it would stay very much in the theme of the creature.

Whip Crack (standard; recharge 56) (Weapon, Fear, Thunder)
Close Burst 2; +8 vs AC; 1D4+4 +1d8 thunder damage
Anyone hit by the whip crack may not voluntarily move adjacent to the Slavemaster and suffers a -2 to all rolls to hit the Slavemaster (save ends).

This would up the damage to a more appropriate level (the same max/min as I proposed with my 2d6+4).

[the Jester]

Originally Posted by Dr_Ruminahui

Battleaxe (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Basic Melee +8 vs AC; 1D10 + 4 damage
Add 1D6 damage if the Slavemaster has combat advantage against the target. If after the Slavemaster makes a Whip Choke or Whip Trip attack, the target ends adjacent to the Slavemaster and is immobilized or prone, the Slavemaster may make a Battleaxe attack as a immediate free action.

I would revise the part in bolds. Basically, move it into the description of Whip Choke and Whip Trip, and clarify whether you mean that it's supposed to be an immediate action or a free action- they are different, and it's a very important distinction in this case, because you can't use immediate actions on your turn. (So I assume that you mean it to be a free action.)

Edit: Oh, and I really like the flavor this guy has.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

About the Blast/Burst thing, Mesh Hong - yeah, I was confused. Good thing we were on the same page, regardless.

And thanks for all the suggestions - I have bumped the Whip Crack damage to 3D4+4 (I will rationalise it as hitting the target multiple times), which is functionally the same as 2D6+4 (pretty much - it actually does .5 more average damage). The Thunder was an excellent idea, just not a good fit for this point of my campaign, which is low on arcane magic.

Wow... you design all your own monsters? Cool... but sounds like a lot of work. In any case, I really appreciate taking the time to look at my attempt.

Jester, thanks for the suggestin and I'm glad you like the concept - feel free to steal it for your own games. I had noticed the "immediate action problem" myself - I orrignally had 3 effects all worded as immediate actions (Whip + axe, resilience & Tyrant's Ire), all of which I wanted to potentially work in the same round, which lead me to read the rules and notice the problem you desribed - I then went through the MM and instead used language similar to that used by other monsters.

That said, I appreciate you loking at it and bringing it to my attention.

So, I think with the help from this thread, I have tweeked it to where I want it:


Hobgoblin Slavemaster
Even more than other Hobgoblin's, the Slavemasters are natural tyrants and seek to subjugate others. Any under them soon learns to fear the lash of their whips.

Hobgoblin Slavemaster Level 3 Elite Controller
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 300
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +8; low light vision
HP 92; Bloodied 46
AC 19; Fortitude 19, Reflex 15, Will 15
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6
Action Points: 1

Battleaxe (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
+8 vs AC; 1D10 + 4 damage
Add 1D6 damage if the Slavemaster has combat advantage against the target.

Whip Choke (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Reach 2; +7 vs Fortitude; 1d4 + 4 damage
Target is grabbed and Slavemaster may pull target to the nearest space adjacent to the Slavemaster. If the Slavemaster hits with the attack and the target ends adjacent to the Slavemaster and grabbed by the Slavemaster, the Slavemaster may make a free Battleaxe attack against the same target. While target remains grabbed, the Slavemaster gains combat advantage against the target but may not make any Whip Choke, Whip Trip or Whip Fury attacks.

Whip Trip (standard; at-will) (Weapon)
Reach 2; +7 vs Reflex; 1d4 + 4 damage
Target is knocked prone. If the Slavemaster hits with the attack and the target ends prone and adjacent to the Slavemaster, the Slavemaster may make a free Battleaxe attack against the same target.

Whip Fury (standard; recharge ) (Weapon, Fear)
Close burst 2; targets enemies; +8 vs AC; 3D4 + 4 damage
Anyone hit by Whip Fury may not voluntarily move adjacent to the Slavemaster and suffers -2 to all rolls to hit it (save ends both)

Hobgoblin Resilience (immediate reaction, when the Slavemaster suffers an effect that save can end, encounter): The Slavemaster rolls a saving throw against the effect.

Tyrant's Ire (free, when first bloodied, encounter) The Slavemaster's Whip Fury recharges and the Slavemaster uses it immediately, even if Whip Choke would normally prevent it doing so. If the Slavemaster currently has a target grabbed due to Whip Choke, the target immediately and automatically escapes.

Alignment: Evil Languages: Common, Goblin
Skills: Athletics +10, Intimidate +8, Endurance +8
Str 19 (+5) Dex 15 (+3) Wis 12 (+2)
Con 14 (+3) Int 10 (+1) Cha 15 (+3)

Equipment: Battleaxe, whip, hide armour, keys

Hobgoblin Slavemaster Tactics
The Slavemaster is a bully, and will seek to isolate a single opponent. He will then use his whip against the opponent, using a shift action after his attack to help limit the targets actions. Should he be engaged by more than one opponent, he will use Whip Fury to reduce attacks against him, and call upon his allies for help. Should his enemies be getting the upper hand, he will use whatever trick he can to even the odds or, should he be bloodied, will not hesitate to flee.

Hobgoblin Slavemaster Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful Nature check.

DC 20: Just as hobgoblin's live to make war, they also live to take the spoils of war, those spoils including slaves. Naturally, someone has to keep those slaves in line, which they do with the lash of their whip

DC: 25 Only the nastiest and most tyrannical hobgoblins become Slavemasters. Underhanded even by goblinoid standards, they will do whatever it takes to protect themselves and come out on top.

[Mesh Hong]

Good stuff. I think this guy has a lot of character and all his abilities make sense. I hope your players really hate him (as intended )

Maybe some on the wording could be neatened up a bit, but its not really that necessary as you know exactly what you mean.

[Omnifarious Grey]

Great looking boss, though any reasoning for the action point thrown in for a non-elite at level 3?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Glad you like it Grey, though the reason it has an action point is that it is a (underlining added):

Originally Posted by Dr_Ruminahui

Hobgoblin Slavemaster Level 3 Elite Controller

BTW, Mesh Hong, I agree the wording does still need work, but I've learned a lot about that through the course of designing it. As you said, it doesn't really matter if I'm the only one using it, but it might if someone here also wants to give the monster a go.

Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

[Omnifarious Grey]

Originally Posted by Dr_Ruminahui

Glad you like it Grey, though the reason it has an action point is that it is a (underlining added):





BTW, Mesh Hong, I agree the wording does still need work, but I've learned a lot about that through the course of designing it. As you said, it doesn't really matter if I'm the only one using it, but it might if someone here also wants to give the monster a go.

Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

My bad on that. I think I was meaning to say non-solo. Though he definitely is detailed to have other enemies with him. I just was unsure how early things got action points in the MM and almost assumed that only solos got action points.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Ah - you used the term "non-elite" up above, so I merely thought you had missed the "elite" in the profile.

That said, how "enhanced" creatures works is (to my recollection) identical through the teirs - elites get x2 HP, +1 AP, and +2 to saves, while solos get x4 HP, +2 AP and +5 to saves.

Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear