Generics: Create-An-Attack-Power

[Minigiant]

Here's my idea for a create a power system. Basically you take one of the power skeletons and add/subtract attributes whose points values sum up to a certain amount depending or the type of power.

There are 4 power skeletons. 1 for each attack type. Each attack gains a power source keyword (Martial, Divine,...) and an accesory keyword (Weapon, Implement).

Melee
Standard Action, Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Primary Attribute Modifier (PAM) vs AC
Hit: 1W + PAM damage

Ranged
Standard Action, Ranged Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Primary Attribute Modifier (PAM) vs AC
Hit: 1W + PAM damage

Close
Standard Action, Close Burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Primary Attribute Modifier (PAM) vs AC
Hit: 1W + PAM damage

Area
Standard Action, Area burst 1 within 10 squares
Target: Each creature is burst
Attack: Primary Attribute Modifier (PAM) vs Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + PAM damage

2) Each power type has a different power modifier sum. Power modifiers may be taken more than once and the effects are cummulative.
At-will powers: 1
Encounter powers: 2 in heroic, 5 in paragon, 7 in epic
Daily power: 4 in heroic, 7 in paragon, 9 in epic

Sample Power Modifers

-2: No PAM damage on Hit
-1: Add damage type (fire, necrotic, poison)
-1: Remove Weapon or Implement Keyword
0: Attack targets Fortitude or Will instead of Reflex
0: Ranged 5 instead of Ranged weapon
0: Hit deal 1d6 damage instead of 1W
0: Add damage type (cold, electric, thunder)
1: Blast or Wall instead of burst
1: Hit also pushes the target 1 square
1: Hit also knocks the target prone
1: Hit deals an additional 1W
1: Hit or Miss also causes minor ailment (dazed, slowed, grants combat advantage) until the end of your next turn
1: Hit or Miss causes onging damage 5
1: Hit or Miss grants target -2 penalty to one defense or attack rolls until end of your next turn
1: Hit or Miss grants target -SAM penalty to one defense or attack rolls until end of your next turn
1: Increase damage dice one size
1: Increase burst or area size by 2
1: Increase Range by 5 squares
1: Ailment lasts until save ends instead or end of turn
1: Hit deals Secondary Attribute damage
1: Add damage type (radiant, acid, psychic)
1: Attack is Realible
1: +2 to the attack roll
1: Attack deal half damage on Miss
2: Attack targets Reflex instead of AC
2: Hit or Miss also causes major ailment (stunned, immobilized, blinded) until the end of your next turn
2: Additional 1W attack after primary attack


Of course it is up to the DM the allow the attack for balance or sense purposes (Martial attacks dealing fire damage etc).

[Alex319]

It's an interesting idea but it certainly needs a lot of work to be able to be used in a game. For example you could have an at-will that gives the target -SAM to AC for a turn - which would be incredibly useful especially at higher levels where SAMs can be +6 or even higher.

I actually had an idea similar to yours once, that had to do with establishing a "damage equivalent" for each effect of a power and then balancing the "Expected damage" against other powers of similar type and level. I never actually finished it up though, but I might as part of the "homebrewing guide" that I'm working on.

[Quickleaf]

I think you've got a nice start! This is something I've been trying to figure out since I got the 4e books, how to deconstruct the power creation system.

Let's give your system a run-through with a couple powers and see what happens...

Scenario #1: Deep Cut (Rogue Attack 5)
Melee power skeleton, 4 pts

(2) Attack targets Reflex (Fortitude) instead of AC
(1) Hit deals an additional 1[W]
(1) Hit or Miss causes ongoing damage 5 (roughly)

Checks out!

Scenario #2: Renewing Smite (Paladin Attack 13)
Melee power skeleton, 5 points

(1) Hit deals additional 1[W]
(1) Heal ally 10+Wis
It seems like healing 10+Wis for an ally is comparable to "Hit or miss causes 5 ongoing damage", so I'll count it for 1 point

According to your system, Renewing Smite is underpowered any way you slice it.

Scenario #3: Death Rend (Ranger 27)
Melee power skeleton, 7 points

(1) Hit deals additional 1[W]
(2) Additional 1[W] attack after primary attack
(1) Hit deals additional 1[W]
(1) I'll say that causing additional damage if both attacks hit is worth 1
(2) Attack causes major ailment (stunned) until end of your next turn

Checks out!

[Garthanos]

Yup just got the urge to go through the powers and cost them out starting with Sure Strike...

I think that checks out too, hehehe.

[Quickleaf]

Three more, from each tier of the fighter.

Scenario #4: Crack the Shell (Fighter 5)
Melee power skeleton, 4 points

(1) Reliable
(1) Hit deals assidional 1[W]
(1) Target takes ongoing 5 damage
(1) Target takes -2 penalty to one defense (AC)

Checks out!

Scenario #5: Exacting Strike (Fighter 17)
Melee power skeleton, 5 points

(3) +2 to the attack roll (total bonus of +6)
(1) Hit deals additional 1[W]

Seems slightly underpowered.

Scenario #6: No Mercy (Fighter 29)
Melee power skeleton, 9 points

(1) Reliable
(6) Hit deals additional 1[W] (total of +6[W])

Seems underpowered.


Maybe daily power points for paragon and epic should be reduced one? (ie. Daily Power: 4 heroic, 6 paragon, 8 epic)

[Minigiant]

The system breaks down when to stack too many of the same bonus a lot and notthing else. Certain 1 point power modifiers get weird when you stack them a lot.

Storm of Destruction (fgtr daily 29) has +1W eight times, a bonus attack, and deal half on miss to a total of 11. Reign of Terror (daily 25) is 7.

Don't even get started on the wizard ones.

I need a rule for stacking modifiers.

[Siberys]

There's no way to indicate level, either - a level 1 daily and a level 9 daily under this system both have 4 points, despite the power disparity they should have.

[Minigiant]

THe power disparity between 1 and 8 is often low. Each power is not pbalanced to each other enough to make the avergae between the level workable. For example most heroic encounters are 2-4 dice with 2-4 bonus effects. They mostly average to 2 points of so.

[Sethros]

This is a intriguing thread, and a potential great resource for DMs like me who like to produce homebrew.

It is somehow a functionnal first throw, and has a lot of potential. I'd like to encourage you to polish that little gem of a system further.

Thanks sharing your ideas, this is the reason people like me lurk around the homebrew boards.

[AbdulAlhazred]

It certainly seems to get things in the right ballpark. I doubt ANY point system is going to entirely fit the whole range of powers in the game, but it is a handy way to check your gut feeling on what is or isn't balanced.

As for low level vs high level, actually if you think about it increasing the level of a power is more of a penalty than it is a benefit. I don't think it really makes sense to factor it in in any way at all. High level powers indeed are more 'powerful', in general, but what level you assign a power to is more about fitting it into the overall set of existing powers than it is a precise statement of how good the power is. There are plenty of examples of 1st level powers that continue to be useful all the way up to 30th level and really aren't especially weaker in the hands of such a character than some of the epic tier powers.

[Garthanos]

I was just pointing out that the Rangers hunters quarry made the rest of his powers suprisingly more dangerous than they looked... in other wards the context of the class... makes all his stuff more biting. ;-)

[Alex319]

One interesting thing to think about when making a system like this is to decide whether you want to (a) try to create a system that accurately matches the existing powers or (b) try to create a system that creates powers as balanced as possible. For example in the existing system a -SAM to AC is worth the same as a -2 to AC, and based on what I've seen of the powers, that accurately reflects how powers are designed. But SAMs can be significantly higher than 2 - especially in the higher tiers. And multiple attacks also tend to be undervalued by this system, because at high levels you get lots of static modifiers to damage so even a relatively weak secondary can become another opportunity to apply these powers. But of course even in the existing powers, multiple attack powers are often agreed to be superior to single attack powers. So how should the systm reflect this?

[Greatwyrm]

There's some really clever stuff here. I'm gonna have to keep this as a yardstick for any homebrew stuff I work up.

As far as stacking modifiers, could you give some kind of credit based on the tier? For example, at paragon tier, maybe you can choose one modifier and get two points of it for free? 4 points at epic. Just a thought.

[Minigiant]

Well my intent was to make standard powers that are balance to the tier, not to the existing powers.

One new idea was to makes 3 groups of power modifiers.
Group 1 stacks normally because the modifiers stay about the same strength at all levels. Llike ongoing damage 5.
Group 2 stacks normally up to a point, Then the modifier's values drops. This dice and range increases, and bonus artacks.
Group 3 is the opposite of Group 2. The modifier's values imcrease. This is for the ones like, +1W and bonus to attacks.

[Garthanos]

This tool goes in to my utility set...