Did the DMG2 give back Spell Research to 4E?

[N0Man]

I finally got a copy of the DMG2 in the mail yesterday, and as I thumbed through the Alternative Rewards chapter, a thought occurred to me. The description and example provided for Grand Master Training could be trivial to re-fluff in order to mimic Spell Research in order to create new Encounter or Daily spells.

Of course, with the permission of the DM, someone could invent their own power and trade it for one of their existing power slots, but refluffing an alternative reward allows one to do so without house rules or losing an existing power.

Do you guys think this would work well for this?

[Mistwell]

Originally Posted by N0Man

I finally got a copy of the DMG2 in the mail yesterday, and as I thumbed through the Alternative Rewards chapter, a thought occurred to me. The description and example provided for Grand Master Training could be trivial to re-fluff in order to mimic Spell Research in order to create new Encounter or Daily spells.

Of course, with the permission of the DM, someone could invent their own power and trade it for one of their existing power slots, but refluffing an alternative reward allows one to do so without house rules or losing an existing power.

Do you guys think this would work well for this?

I do, and I think that would be a great use for the Alternate Rewards chapter.

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think you could do that, sure. I don't think its mutually exclusive with making up new powers necessarily but it seems like it would work fine. Its an interesting idea anyway.

[UngeheuerLich]

Spell research is mainly ritual research now.

But i would not be opposed if a character gets a never seen power from a grandmaster, which he can retrain in immediately or just use in place of a different power of this level or above. And i would certainly not limit it to spells.

Also it may be possible to make it a daily magical item use power. I generally don´t like it if training makes you forget older tricks.

[N0Man]

Originally Posted by UngeheuerLich

Spell research is mainly ritual research now.

Why can't both be used?

[UngeheuerLich]

It can. But ritual research is easier to balance... and actually more important^^

[AbdulAlhazred]

Originally Posted by UngeheuerLich

It can. But ritual research is easier to balance... and actually more important^^

Hmmm, well, rituals won't directly impact combat balance. On the other hand that doesn't necessarily mean they are easier to balance in an overall sense. Even the existing rituals can be tricky and sometimes problematic. Its the sort of "world changing" nature of rituals that gets slippery. They can seem innocuous in the sense of individual applications, but their implications can still be pretty crazy. The worst a badly designed combat spell can do is let a PC punch above his weight.

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by N0Man

I finally got a copy of the DMG2 in the mail yesterday, and as I thumbed through the Alternative Rewards chapter, a thought occurred to me. The description and example provided for Grand Master Training could be trivial to re-fluff in order to mimic Spell Research in order to create new Encounter or Daily spells.

That's a great idea for an Alternate Rewards campaign.

Divine-dudes get presents from their patron, Arcane-dudes get results from their research.

Thanks, -- N

[WalterKovacs]

Originally Posted by UngeheuerLich

Also it may be possible to make it a daily magical item use power. I generally don´t like it if training makes you forget older tricks.

With the concept of "boons" it would fit quite well. Basically a new power (at-will, encounter or daily) that is attached to the boon and works like an item power, but without an item "attached" to it. (The daily power would still interact with daily item power usage limits, but otherwise adds without a need of retraining).

[UngeheuerLich]

Originally Posted by AbdulAlhazred

Hmmm, well, rituals won't directly impact combat balance. On the other hand that doesn't necessarily mean they are easier to balance in an overall sense. Even the existing rituals can be tricky and sometimes problematic. Its the sort of "world changing" nature of rituals that gets slippery. They can seem innocuous in the sense of individual applications, but their implications can still be pretty crazy. The worst a badly designed combat spell can do is let a PC punch above his weight.

Ritual with world shattering components are not known to most, have rare components and need a lot of time to master. Its easy to add in other requirements...

[ValhallaGH]

Originally Posted by UngeheuerLich

Ritual with world shattering components are not known to most, have rare components and need a lot of time to master. Its easy to add in other requirements...

I think he was referencing the ability of a seemingly innocent and innocuous ritual.
Example: combine the Animal Messenger and Comprehend Languages rituals. Suddenly, towns can always communicate with each other, clearly and accurately, within reasonable distances (about 12 hours travel time). Consider the impact this will have upon diplomacy, commerce, land rights, legal actions, and probably a few areas I've forgotten about.
Example: How does the existences of the Eye of Alarm ritual affect theft and burglary in a city? Presumably, a company that provided such spells as a regular service would be in high demand, especially the permanent variety.
Small, innocent rituals that can have dramatic, world altering, effects upon a setting when you begin applying them across the board.


Not that you ever have to apply them across the world. It's your world, most of it does what you want it to do, and sometimes what you want it to do doesn't make much sense.

Good luck.

[AbdulAlhazred]

Originally Posted by ValhallaGH

I think he was referencing the ability of a seemingly innocent and innocuous ritual.
Example: combine the Animal Messenger and Comprehend Languages rituals. Suddenly, towns can always communicate with each other, clearly and accurately, within reasonable distances (about 12 hours travel time). Consider the impact this will have upon diplomacy, commerce, land rights, legal actions, and probably a few areas I've forgotten about.
Example: How does the existences of the Eye of Alarm ritual affect theft and burglary in a city? Presumably, a company that provided such spells as a regular service would be in high demand, especially the permanent variety.
Small, innocent rituals that can have dramatic, world altering, effects upon a setting when you begin applying them across the board.


Not that you ever have to apply them across the world. It's your world, most of it does what you want it to do, and sometimes what you want it to do doesn't make much sense.

Good luck.

Yeah, even the fairly minor rituals in a lot of cases are rather world changing if you start thinking about it. Not that a lot of them would necessarily have a huge impact on things, but it doesn't take much. In the grand scheme of things I think experts in even low level ritual casting would be more significant to society than high level spellcasters. In any case its a bit OT.

[Ryan_Singer]

Originally Posted by AbdulAlhazred

Yeah, even the fairly minor rituals in a lot of cases are rather world changing if you start thinking about it. Not that a lot of them would necessarily have a huge impact on things, but it doesn't take much. In the grand scheme of things I think experts in even low level ritual casting would be more significant to society than high level spellcasters. In any case its a bit OT.

This is pretty much the point of the Eberron Campaign Setting.

[ValhallaGH]

Originally Posted by Ryan_Singer

This is pretty much the point of the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Except it started with 3.x as the model of how the world works. Still relevant, just not precisely aligned with the current edition.

[ValhallaGH]

Originally Posted by Ryan_Singer

This is pretty much the point of the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Except it started with 3.x as the model of how the world works. Still relevant, just not precisely aligned with the current edition.