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I have been asked by a few people for more information about the Fate Point cards we use in my campaign, so I thought I would drop them in here with some information.
First of all, the idea to use Fate Points in a 4e (or any D&D edition) game was not my idea. In fact, I was not aware of Fate's Aspect system until I read the idea of bringing it over to D&D a while back (was mid 2009 I think).
Anyway, the idea of the rules as we use them were developed by other people (I think most of it we were discussing was on RPGnet) and went as follows (I am going to make the assumption that everyone is somewhat familiar with Aspects from SoTC - if not, just ask)...
Characters in the Heroic Tier choose 3 Aspects. You get another in Paragon, and one more in Epic for a total of 5 at that point.
You gain Fate Points (1 at a time) from the DM based on roleplaying your character well based on his/her Aspects. A Fate Point can be used a number of different ways. Here is a screenshot of one to give you the idea...
So, the first few are pretty straight forward - you get bonuses to hit. The cool thing about these is that FP's can be used as a Free Action so you can use it after a roll - and in fact, I allow the PC to ask (after missing) "would a +2 from my FP hit?" and I will answer them yes/no so they can decide whether or not to use it.
Recharge an Encounter or a Daily Power (though Daily requires 2 fate points).
Recharge a Healing surge, pretty straight forward.
Make a decoration is a fun one and basically covers any other thing you may want to try and use a FP for. I gave en example in another post of a game where I was playing a goblin rogue (with a DM who also uses this same system). We broke out of the basement of an Inn and needed to flee/hide somewhere - so I pulled up the FP card and said, "I want to take the group to my hideout" at which point he said, "ok, you head there" and took the card. I didn't have a hideout, we had never talked about it etc but it allows you to add something the game/setting as a player in much the same way a DM could.
Finally you have Resist an aspect compulsion. So you have an Aspect called "Greedy"... and enter a room with gold on the table... the DM could hold a Fate Point in front of you and say, "that's a lot of gold, and no one is looking... you really want to take it"... the player knows he can either take the gold (and the Fate Point) or instead say, "no, I don't want to risk it right now" at which point he hands the DM one of his own Fate Points, thus resisting the aspect compulsion.
Anyway, that's the quick rundown of it for those interested.
I have two versions of the cards - one in color (see screenshot above) and one dumbed down and in black and white - example here...
Here are the links to he PDF's - if you want to save them, just right-click it and choose Save-As, or open them and then save them...
This sounds solid... How long have you been using it (since 2009)? do encounters or dailies have normal recharges or is this intended to replace them... ( I have been considering t replacing the normal recovery for dailies and make recharging a probabilistic thing... and mix in something just like this).
The number of aspects sounds ok but could be even more (even 3 might not very good at defining a character very well -- the number of fate points is sort of self regulating on the impact no matter how many aspects you have).
In your experience what kind of rate do you get fate points being used?
Spending a fate point in Fate is about like a +4 on an attack roll in D&D it is really big thing... (kind of like using an action point).
I am not sure I want ....action points ... along side fate points ... integrating the two seems important.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
- Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein - or the other way around -
Last edited by Garthanos; 20th February 2010 at 03:57 PM..
I'm wondering why you can only get a +1 to attack with an at-will but a +3 to attack with dailies? Intuitively I would think it would be the opposite, because an attack bonus is more powerful for dailies than it is for at-wills.
If you've made use of these, do your players seem hesitant to use them to block compels or to make declarations when they have so much combat utility?
This sounds solid... How long have you been using it (since 2009)?
Well, I just started using them in this (my 2nd 4e) campaign, so 7 games. But, we started incorporating them into my friends campaign when I brought up the idea about 7-8 months ago, so... about 12 games there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
...do encounters or dailies have normal recharges or is this intended to replace them... ( I have been considering t replacing the normal recovery for dailies and make recharging a probabilistic thing... and mix in something just like this).
Yes, they still recharge normally after rests etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
The number of aspects sounds ok but could be even more (even 3 might not very good at defining a character very well -- the number of fate points is sort of self regulating on the impact no matter how many aspects you have).
Yea, more would be fine I think - we have found 3 to be good though to start. For half of the players, it's hard for them to come up with 2. The rest could easily do more (I could do a TON) so we jus stuck with 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
In your experience what kind of rate do you get fate points being used?
In my current campaign, I have 4 players. Each game, 1-3 will get used though we have had games where none get used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
Spending a fate point in Fate is about like a +4 on an attack roll in D&D it is really big thing... (kind of like using an action point).
I am not sure I want ....action points ... along side fate points ... integrating the two seems important.
Yea, I dunno. It's been great in our games - no problem running the two together. But, I'm sure you could integrate the two if you wanted
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzlewump
I'm wondering why you can only get a +1 to attack with an at-will but a +3 to attack with dailies? Intuitively I would think it would be the opposite, because an attack bonus is more powerful for dailies than it is for at-wills.
Well, I'm not sure what the reason was for that (those bonuses were part of the system I did not create) but I just don't see it as an issues. So they have a chance to hit with a Daily when they would have missed... I don't see it as overpowered or anything. And it's kind of 50/50... they roll, miss, ask "would a +3 hit?" and half the time the answer is, "nope". It's not an auto-hit every encounter or even every session.
In all the games we have played with this system (looks to be about... 19 or so) I think the +3 has been used... 5 times? So, 5 Hits with a Daily when there should have been a miss, in 19 games where we probably saw 30 some combat encounters (1-2 a session) and so approx 270 rounds (estimating 9 rounds per combat) is fine with me
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzlewump
If you've made use of these, do your players seem hesitant to use them to block compels or to make declarations when they have so much combat utility?
No hesitation at all, though your players may vary of course.
Here is what is used in order of popularity at this point...
[1] +2 Encounter Attack Roll
[2] +3 Daily Attack Roll
[3] Recharge Encounter Power
[4] Recharge Daily Power (2 FP)
[5] +1 @Will Attack, or Skill Roll (Always been used for skill roll)
[6] Make a Declaration
[7] Resist aspect compulsion
[8] Recharge Healing Surge
Couple things to clarify as well. This post was made to share the cards, so I didn't really go into much else...
In our games...
- You can have 2 FP's max at a time.
- Every game session, you start with 1 FP. If you had 2 from last game, you still have only those 2. If you had one from the last game, you now have 2.
- I recommend offering up ideas for decelerations, especially in the beginning to get your players used it. For example:
In my example above, we'll say one of my players was playing the goblin when everyone burst out of the Inn. I ask, "where do you go?" - they all look at each other puzzled, "we just start running"... I might then say, "well, for a FP [the goblin] might remember he has a hideout you could stay at"... then that player says "ohhh right, the hideout" handing over the card.
It's a good way to get them thinking about that - the ways they can use declarations etc.
"I want to make a declaration that there's an untrapped bag with 10k astral diamonds in it."
Then maybe the DM introduces an epic guy who is looking for his lost bag of loot. The player says, "I declare that this guy swore an oath to an ancestor of mine to serve his lineage without question, and I'm the last in that line."
You could still keep the idea of declarations but you'll have to provide more rules for them.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
You could still keep the idea of declarations but you'll have to provide more rules for them.
I don't have to provide anything more than I have already.
They work great for our games as is. The only players I know who would look to use them in such a way would have been me... when I was 12 years old or so - that is not a concern to me in the slightest - you game/players may vary of course
---edit---
Not everything has to be defined by a strict set of rules. My players understood right off the bat that these were for advancing the plot - to be used creatively as part of the story and in most cases will be tied to their character's backstory and/or aspects etc (as in the example, a rogue using it to get to his hideout).
If you are playing with children, then yes, you may need to clarify to them that a request like that does not fall in line with the intended use. And there is nothing wrong with playing with children, but my players are adults here to have fun and would themselves see that as a really cheesy request (and an obvious joke).
__________________
Last edited by weem; 21st February 2010 at 03:44 AM..
Fate points are as I said earlier meant to have a fairly high end impact.(And the non abstracted translation lost a little scale--- its about half the mechanical impact as in the original game)
Some of the more abstracted usages of Fate points especially require examples in fair quantity to absorb them (the game Fate has always been very much about showing examples). A more fate worthy answer to Lost Soul would probably be providing more examples.
I would like to hear about them too since you have played in this context for a little while ;-)
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
- Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein - or the other way around -
Last edited by Garthanos; 21st February 2010 at 04:11 AM..
Fate points are as I said earlier meant to have a fairly high end impact.(And the non abstracted translation lost a little scale--- its about half the mechanical impact as in the original game)
Some of the more abstracted usages of Fate points especially require examples in fair quantity to absorb them (the game Fate has always been very much about showing examples). A more fate worthy answer to Lost Soul would probably be providing more examples.
I would like to hear about them too since you have played in this context for a little while ;-)
Yea, Fate does give a lot of examples, which is very cool. And as I mentioned in my first post, this thread was created under the assumption that everyone knows about the Fate system. Obviously not everyone does, but the idea was more about sharing the cards than sharing my system.
With that said, here are some of the declarations that have come up...
1. The hideout example mentioned above was one I used
2. While moving through the catacombs under a major city in my setting, I told the player leading them that it would take about 2 hours - well, they were in a hurry so she offered one up to "take the shortcut - we need to get there in an hour or less" - done (though of course it was more dangerous, hehe).
3. They have been used as contacts twice - when the players have been stuck... for one example, a player said something like, "my brother lived here for a while before he died and i used to visit him... there was a lady next door to his place, maybe she knows more about what's going on" etc.
4. One was used pretty much right from the Fate examples too - it gave an example of a locked door, and a PC using one to say it wasn't really locked, just jammed (iirc) - anyway, we used one to get into a door that way.
I think there was a few more, one or two but I don't recall. As I mentioned, they don't get used as much as I would like (or as much as I think would be cool) but it's up to them. I offer up ideas from time to time to help, as I mentioned
I don't have to provide anything more than I have already.
They work great for our games as is. The only players I know who would look to use them in such a way would have been me... when I was 12 years old or so - that is not a concern to me in the slightest - you game/players may vary of course
---edit---
Not everything has to be defined by a strict set of rules. My players understood right off the bat that these were for advancing the plot - to be used creatively as part of the story and in most cases will be tied to their character's backstory and/or aspects etc (as in the example, a rogue using it to get to his hideout).
If you are playing with children, then yes, you may need to clarify to them that a request like that does not fall in line with the intended use. And there is nothing wrong with playing with children, but my players are adults here to have fun and would themselves see that as a really cheesy request (and an obvious joke).
I'm sure they work for your group - you've got some unspoken "rules" governing their use. I'm not saying that they are bad, but if you want to... I don't know, release them for wider use, you have to write down those unspoken rules.
If you are playing as an advocate of your character (that is, you want your character to achieve his goals) a mechanic like this isn't going to work - not without more rules limiting what you can declare and what you can't*. You have to change how you play so that you're no longer advocating for your PC; you have to take a different approach to the game.
Which is fine, but there's a huge difference between how those two games are played. If one is going to introduce a mechanic like that into one's game, one should be aware of what the consequences are.
To be pointed about it: In typical D&D play, as a player you are expected to overcome challenges. With a "Declaration" mechanic you also create those challenges. To me that seems to reduce the impact of the challenges, and would probably force play to be more about the character of the PC (specifically, what you'll take Compels for and what you won't).
* - My first thought on these sorts of rules would be tied to levels. Declaring a treasure parcel of your level; a monster of your level; changing the disposition of a monster of your level; introducing a location of your level; an obstacle, trap, etc.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
I'm sure they work for your group - you've got some unspoken "rules" governing their use. I'm not saying that they are bad, but if you want to... I don't know, release them for wider use, you have to write down those unspoken rules.
We don't have unspoken rules. Like I have said, my thread starts with assuming that people are familiar with Aspects from Fate... that means the rules about how they work. My players looked over them when we started (I made sure everyone was into it before implementing it) and I think the section about narrative control is great and works well.
Maybe that is the problem. Maybe instead of "declaration" the card should say (as it does in the rules) Take minor "narrative control".
Just so we know what I am referring to, here are the appropriate sections from Fate...
//////////
Fate Points
<snip>some other uses, including bonuses etc</snip>
They may also spend a Fate point for minor narrative control of a situation.
Common uses for this include finding a convenient item, knowing someone
in a particular town, or showing up at just the right moment in another
scene. Effectively, this expenditure allows the player to take the role of GM
for a moment. The GM has full veto rights on any such expenditures, in
which case the point is not spent.
More often than not, this sort of expenditure of Fate points is an attempt by
the players to keep things moving. It’s more fun to just assume you have the
tool you need in your trunk than to have to drive back from the haunted
house, hit a hardware store, and then drive back. As a GM, if the
expenditure lets people continue to have fun without breaking anything, it
should generally be allowed.
It’s also important to consider how reasonable the player’s request is. If it’s
really no stretch at all, spending a Fate point shouldn’t even be necessary.
Fate points are really for use in that narrow spectrum between completely
logical and GM ruling.
And on the next page...
How Much Power Should Players Have?
Granting the players any degree of narrative control may
seem like an odd idea to GMs who have not encountered
the idea before. As such, exactly how far it goes is almost
entirely based on the GM’s comfort level. GMs are
welcome to ignore this option entirely, but we strongly
encourage GMs to at least give it a try. Even something
so simple as allowing players to spend a Fate point to
have the right item in their backpack can be very
satisfying for everyone involved. As far as we’re
concerned, there’s no limit on how far this power can
extend. It’s possible to give player broad narrative power
with this mechanic, allowing them to use Fate points to
create plots and NPCs and generally complicate stories.
If that sounds like fun, give it a try - the only real
limitation should be that it’s done so everyone has more
fun. If the players are spending Fate points and things are
becoming less fun as a result, it’s time to tone things
down a notch.
//////////
That covers it well enough, at least for us. Everyone got the idea and were excited.
Now, is that enough for the masses for its addition to D&D? Maybe not. It works for Fate apparently, but as you mentioned that is a different game.
I don't know, you tell me - does changing the term from "Make a declaration" to "Take minor narrative control" make it easier to manage? What about after reading those rules (maybe you have read them before, I'm not sure)?
Can you elaborate on the Aspects part of all this or provide a link. This is interesting stuff but I am not familiar with this. I get the Fate Point side of things. Just not sure what things woudl be included in Aspects. Are they always negative? Are they narrowly or broadly defined?
Can you elaborate on the Aspects part of all this or provide a link. This is interesting stuff but I am not familiar with this. I get the Fate Point side of things. Just not sure what things woudl be included in Aspects. Are they always negative? Are they narrowly or broadly defined?
Granted this is the 2nd edition and I think there is a 3rd now? But we did this based on the second edition and I think (if i saw somewhere correctly) it's pretty much the same? But I don't know for sure.
I apologize; I didn't realize you were working from a game text!
Quote:
Originally Posted by weem
I don't know, you tell me - does changing the term from "Make a declaration" to "Take minor narrative control" make it easier to manage? What about after reading those rules (maybe you have read them before, I'm not sure)?
I've played some of the Fate knockoffs - SotC and Starjammers, but not Fate itself.
The thing to remember, I think, is that they are different games with different currency and different focus. These rules can work for 4E but it's a different style of play. That's all I'm trying to say. Be aware of what these changes can do to your game, and if they will work for you. Only you can make that decision.
(You in general, not you as in weem!)
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
Thanks for sharing Weem, and being generous with answers, especially given that it appears you may have had to give more in depth answers than you originally intended.
I've also been interested in incorporating Fate Points into a 4E game. I played a one-shot of Spirit of the Century at a small convention and loved aspects and fate points. I'm still not entirely sure whether I think they'd work in 4E with players I'd play with, but I still want to do something that is at least similar.
I previously found that when I tried to explain Aspects and Fate Points to friends, I had a hard time selling them on the idea. Several seemed confused by the ideas, disinterested, or thought it added too much complexity.
In your experience, did players take long to understand and warm up to these mechanics? Has the reception been pretty consistent in your groups?
__________________ Law's Game Style: Storyteller 83%, Tactician 75%, Specialist 67%, Method Actor 58%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 25%, Butt-Kicker 17%
The Spirit of the Century game that I played in we had a really fantastic GM (Sam Chupp, who I didn't realize until much later who he was). He also implemented something he called "Fan Mail", which I believe he said was from Prime-Time Adventures (which I'm not familiar with).
Anyway, it allowed an alternative way for players to gain Fate Points, which is simply by doing something really fun, cool, or interesting that the rest of the party likes. There will be 1 or more Fate Points on the table that can be freely taken by any player at the table to give to ANOTHER player to reward them.
Anyway, Aspects, Fate Points, and Fan Mail all were really fun... but then again, it might have all just been because we had a great GM.
__________________ Law's Game Style: Storyteller 83%, Tactician 75%, Specialist 67%, Method Actor 58%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 25%, Butt-Kicker 17%
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