Heal Skill - Stabilize the Dying Questino

[Smoke Jaguar]

I might be making a bigger deal than I should be but my party and I aren't really understanding how the aftermath of this works...

Stabilize the Dying-

Make a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize an adjacent dying character. If you succeed, the character can stop making death saving throws until he or she takes damage. The character's current hit point total doesn't change as a result of being stabilized.

So my questions are...

After being stabilized, is the character now concious? Are they able to take a healing surge? What happens when the encounter is over? Are they able to move on their own accord?

I guess more than anything, I am not really sure what happens after the character has been stabilized. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[DracoSuave]

Originally Posted by Smoke Jaguar

I might be making a bigger deal than I should be but my party and I aren't really understanding how the aftermath of this works...



So my questions are...

After being stabilized, is the character now concious? Are they able to take a healing surge? What happens when the encounter is over? Are they able to move on their own accord?

I guess more than anything, I am not really sure what happens after the character has been stabilized. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

A stabilized character is still unconscious, and cannot take actions. That includes normal movement and take an action to second wind, but does not include healing surge expenditures that are not actions, and you can still be subject to forced movement.

This means that other characters that have powers that allow healing surges to be spent still work perfectly fine, that a character who uses the right Heal check on them can have them second wind without spending an action, and that after the battle is over, healing surges can be spent as normal from the short rest.


Other effects of unconsciousness include: -5 to all defenses, always fall prone, cannot flank, always provide combat advantage, and can be subject to coup de grace

Comments

That is what I thought. Thanks.

[Prestidigitalis]

Think of it this way:

Once stabilized, it's as if the dying character can "take 10" on every death save until he or she takes more damage. By not rolling for the save, they lose the chance to roll a 20 and recover, but they also lose the much more likely chance to miss a third save and die for real.

I assume that, in an extreme case, the player of the stabilized character could decide to roll a death save anyway in the vain hope of rolling a 20. An example where this might be desirable would be if the rest of the party had been knocked unconscious and the only hope of salvation would be to make a miraculous recovery and finish the fight. But in doing so, the stabilized character would be taking a great risk.

An interesting question would be, can a stabilized character choose on a given turn to make a death save anyway, but then go back to being stabilized if they failed, provided that it was not the third failure.

[Smoke Jaguar]

That is how we treated it until the end of the encounter. We then said that he was concious and could use healing surges because they were able to take an extended rest. I didn't make the party carry him out but they could have with ease.

[Damogag]

I was wondering about a PC who lets say misses two death saving throws and has only 1 left before he dies. He is stabilized by another and therefore now doesn't have to make any more death saving throws. Then lets say he takes damage after being stabilized. So I assume he now starts making death saving throws again until stabilized once more, but where does he start? Does he get only 1 death saving throw before he dies or does he start all over with 3 death saving throws before he dies? Thanks

[Nikosandros]

Originally Posted by Damogag

Does he get only 1 death saving throw before he dies or does he start all over with 3 death saving throws before he dies? Thanks

He only gets one save because the death saves reset only after a rest (short or long). Even if the character becomes conscious again, the death saves won't reset until he rests.

[filthgrinder]

Originally Posted by Damogag

I was wondering about a PC who lets say misses two death saving throws and has only 1 left before he dies. He is stabilized by another and therefore now doesn't have to make any more death saving throws. Then lets say he takes damage after being stabilized. So I assume he now starts making death saving throws again until stabilized once more, but where does he start? Does he get only 1 death saving throw before he dies or does he start all over with 3 death saving throws before he dies? Thanks

In your situation, he would not have to start making death saves again, stabilizing a character, does not heal them. Example:

A character is at 5hps, and he takes a big hit for 15 points of damage, He is dropped and sitting at -10hp (ouch). On his turn, he rolls a death save and fails, strike one. His friends start moving towards him. Next round, he rolls his death save and fails, strike 2. A party member staddles up next to him and makes his heal check and the dying character is stabilized. However, he is still at -10hp. He just no longer needs to make saves, but he is not healed and can not do anything. If he gets hit for more damage, it just drops him further negative, but he will not have to make more saving throws unless he is healed.

If he is healed, and dropped again, he will start making saving throws again, starting with the two strikes against him. His saving throw failures are not reset until a rest.

[Vael]

Huh. I guess I've been doing it wrong. I allow PCs that have been stabilized to continue rolling death saves. There's just no penalty for failure, so they can try for the 20 to get up.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Originally Posted by Vael

Huh. I guess I've been doing it wrong. I allow PCs that have been stabilized to continue rolling death saves. There's just no penalty for failure, so they can try for the 20 to get up.

That's how my group has been doing it as well, and I intend to keep doing it going forward. After all, the death saving throw system was built into 4E specifically to give players a way to stay engaged (even if only by rolling a die) and a way to maybe get back into the action (by rolling a 20). I'd rather not have him just sit there awkwardly, hoping that there's a spare Whatevering Word to use on him.

[Damogag]

I appreciate the thoughtful input.

I do believe that you still need to make a death saving throw if you take damage after being stabilized. And because you did not take a short rest nor were you healed, you would start where you left off concerning the number of failed death saves you have left.

"Stabilize the Dying (DC 15): If the subject is dying, the subject stops making death saving throws, until it takes damage."

I do have a problem with the reset interpretation or at least I would like to discuss it more. I'm not trying to discredit anyone's interpretation because the rules like laws can be interpreted many ways. This is my take on it:

I think death saving throws reset after a short rest if you are still in a dying state (0 or lower hps). I think it resets regardless of a short rest if you are healed (above 0 hps). This is based on two things:

1) Death Saving Throw rules are only relevant when a character is dying (while he or she is at 0 or lower hps) "Death Saving Throw: When an adventurer is dying..." "9 or Lower: The adventurer slips one step closer to death. If this result comes up 3 times before the adventurer takes a short or an extended rest, he or she dies."

You stop making death saving throws once you are above 0 hp (healed); therefore you are no longer dying and the death saving throw rules are no longer applicable until you take damage another time that drops you to 0 or lower hps, then you go back to these death saving throw rules and start again.

2) Logically, if for instance you are dying and then get fully healed why would a previous failed death saving throw matter? You are as healthy as you were when you began the encounter. If you get knocked down to 0 or lower hps again, then you are in the same position you were in (dying) as you were previously when you started rolling (up to 3) death saving throws.

I think the "short rest" death saving throw reset is applicable in the following situations, maybe others:

A. you have been stabilized and have not been healed, the encounter has ended, and now 5 minutes game time has expired, then if after the short rest you take more damage in your stabilized but still unhealed and unconscious state, you would start off with 3 death saving throws. Of course after 6 hours of not taking damage you would regain all of your hit points because of an extended rest, unless your party was doing funky things to your unconscious body to prevent you from resting, LOL.

B. If, however, you were not stabilized (party wipe) I think you would continue to make your death saving throws and after the encounter you would still make up to 50 death saving throws before you would no longer need to make them (because short rest equals appx. 5 minutes which is equal to 50 rounds and thus 50 death saving throws or fewer if you roll a 20).

FIRST AID QUESTION:

Can "Granting Second Wind" be used outside of an encounter and can it be used more than once during an encounter?

I would think not because it is basically a way to let an unconscious person who cannot take actions to take the equivalent of a standard action to use second wind. Second wind is an encounter power so I don't think it could be used outside of an encounter. Also, I don't think it can be used on a pc more than once during such encounter nor can more than one person Grant Second Wind to the same pc during an encounter because the player himself could have only used second wind one time during an encounter. Anyone disagree?

Any thoughts on these interpretations? Thanks again for your thoughtful responses.

[Thaumaturge]

Originally Posted by Damogag

You stop making death saving throws once you are above 0 hp (healed); therefore you are no longer dying and the death saving throw rules are no longer applicable until you take damage another time that drops you to 0 or lower hps, then you go back to these death saving throw rules and start again.

Best time to have a rules debate. You should call the DM 411 line:

October 20th-23rd
2pm – 6pm PST
1-800-532-8455 (North American only)

If you find out that death saves reset after you become conscious again (you won't), my players will want to buy you a round.

Thaumaturge.