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The changes to Demons and Devils just feel wrong to me, particularly the change to the Erinyes and the Succubus. It just makes me want to continue with 3.5 which I plan to do and reduces my enthusiasm for 4e.
I am not in favour of dumbing down the Great Wheel cosmology in favour of some simplified version either.
Well, by removing it from the roster of evil outsiders, they actually have the opportunity to do this, by designing from scratch a creature that more faithfully matches the original mythology, in a future product. They may or may not end up doing so, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see it. The erinyes should fill a role similar to the inevitables, if anything.
That's an interesting idea. I'm OK with removing them from the devils' roster, but I would still leave their alignment as evil.
Without even going into any in-game history, their basic motivations and attitudes w/ respect to one another and how they interact with mortals including PCs, is part of their core being. If you want to erase most of that apparently, a different system with different core assumptions for basic monsters might be more appropriate.
Well, I honestly don't think that the interaction between demons and devils are such a big deal in defining the assumptions of D&D. In AD&D they were just two separate groups of evil creatures without any specific interaction....
I've never really used demons & devils much, so while I think it is irritating to turn that much D&D history on its head, I'm not really affected by it.
__________________ "The Soul of D&D?It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru
- Succubi are temptresses, enticing mortals to fall into damnation through the promise of carnal pleasure.
- Erynies are the torturers of the Cosmos. They seek out those guilty of abominable crimes and torture the hell (pun intended) out of them.
How is that "similar territory"?
Hmm. Because of teh hawtness? Can't have two physically beautiful, evil, human-looking fiends I guess. A gorgeous "monster" can only have a single purpose, regardless of what it actually does, and that is to look pretty. That's the purpose.
In that case are you sure it's D&D that you really want to be playing?
By that reasoning, Eberron isn't D&D as it replaces the Great Wheel with its own planar cosmology.
I'm not really a fan of the Great Wheel either, half-a-dozen different outer planes all inhabited by these horned, bat-winged supernaturally evil creatures. What's the point? They are all basically Hell.
__________________ The female tiefling's horns are not 'handlebars'.
I always thought of Erinyes more like dominatrices (Lawful subtype as well as their Animate Rope type ability), seducing and then forcing men to do their will, while succubi are just out to destroy for the thrill. I figured those are different enough! ...but I guess this is a case of fluff being ignored for monsters having only one specific purpose: being killed within 5 rounds.
Oh well. Conceptually I always liked flavor, but I could always come up with that myself. When reading fluff in books, it takes me a looong time to get through... unless its exceptional. For instance, the "Races of..." series, though somewhat insightful, took me a while to read; I guess it just wasn't interesting enough for me. Now take old 2e Planescape fluff and I gulp it down like I was in a desert without water for a day! It might be because the few books I've read were more narrative in Planescape.
Whatever. I should look at this for what the rules do and not what their little monster manual says I should do with them.
...poor Erinyes... I hardly knew thee... let alone could pronounce that diphthong!
There are F types of people in this world...
People who understand hexidecimial.
People who don't.
People wh... oh, dammit, I have to come up with 13 more of these?
That makes no sense to me. Let's look at mythology:
- Succubi are temptresses, enticing mortals to fall into damnation through the promise of carnal pleasure.
- Erynies are the torturers of the Cosmos. They seek out those guilty of abominable crimes and torture the hell (pun intended) out of them.
How is that "similar territory"?
As has been pointed out on other threads (listen for the sounds of people kicking gnomes ), mythological roots don't usually translate into D&D terms. In D&D terms, the big difference between succubi and eryines were their wings and which Evil Club they belonged to.
I can't for a moment imagine they won't be back by the time MM3 hits the shelves. Probably sooner. They're just giving up their seat on the MM1 bus in favor of something more dissimilar as compared to the succubus.
Hmm. Because of teh hawtness? Can't have two physically beautiful, evil, human-looking fiends I guess. A gorgeous "monster" can only have a single purpose, regardless of what it actually does, and that is to look pretty. That's the purpose.
Heh. Why not fold Nymph into that as well, then? Oh, different enough fluff (evil and nature), I guess.
There are F types of people in this world...
People who understand hexidecimial.
People who don't.
People wh... oh, dammit, I have to come up with 13 more of these?
I really like erinyes, so much I even wrote a Savage Species progression as I was planning to play one, but the D&D version doesn't have enough of a concept. The succubus is the temptress - a clear role. According to the 3e MM erinyes "serve as scouts, servants, and even concubines for powerful devils". In terms of powers they're a more fighty, scouty version of the succubus. It's really not good enough. There's only limited space in MM1, so only the strongest and most useful concepts should go in...
Banish the erinyes!
__________________ The female tiefling's horns are not 'handlebars'.
But not one based on D&D history and names for unique to D&D fiends like Grazzt.
So call him the Dark Man that witches worship. Clearly the same guy, no IP issues. I've been contemplating shopping around a gnome/kobold PDF and it took me all of 30 seconds to come up with generic versions of Kurtulmak, Tiamat and Garl Glittergold that I could use safely.
Quote:
I asked in a previous thread about the demise of dragon if they'd want to do an OGL demonomicon and they (I can't remember if it was Jacobs or Mona) said they had no interest in doing more if they couldn't use past D&D connections and references.
So you might have to be satisfied with the work already done in Book of Fiends (slightly different take on devils, etc.)
The 3E Book of Fiends was also written by Chris Pramas, who has said his company will support 4E. While Erik's work is great, he's not the only one capable of hitting the ball out of the park on this subject.
- Devils are angels who rebelled. They rose up against the deity they served and murdered him. The crime of deicide is unimaginably perverse for angels, and hence devils were cursed and imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
What happened to the Angels who didn't rise up? Did they flee? Did they fight to the death? Was there a great purge, a war among brothers? Are they trapped in the Nine Hells too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Baker
- The Nine Hells are what became of the murdered deity's divine realm after his death. The Hells are the devils' prison, and it is difficult for them to get out without mortal aid.
Nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Baker
- We've re-sorted demons and devils a bit, since we want these two categories of monsters to make a little more sense. Devils tend to be more humanoid in form, usually fight with weapons, and often wear armor. Most have horns, wings, and tails. One consequence of this: the erinyes and the succubus were holding down pretty similar territory, so we've decided that they're the same monster, called the succubus, and it's a devil.
That's a shame, and it doesn't logically follow either.
1. As well covered, the Succubus and the Erinyes do NOT cover the the same ground - unless you mean the "attractive evil female humanoid with wings" ground, which is a pretty shallow reading of both.
2. Just because all Devils are humanoids, it does not follow that all Demons are non-humanoids. Personally I can't see any devils who want to look like an 8-year old girl with a cute dolly, but I bet there are some demons who would go that route ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Baker
- Ice devils don't look like other devils. We've decided that they are actually a demonic/yugoloth race...
Am I the only one who caught "demonic/yugoloth"?? I think "weird, awful things made of nightmares" category of creature has been rolled up into one category. Some of them may be more "evil" than others, but I think "chaos" is the defining theme that will link them all together. This is probably good in some respects, since Chthulu and his ilk aren't easily categorized on the whole "good vs. evil" thing (they're really just alien), but it probably makes sense to say he's some kind of "Elder Demon/yugoloth."
All in all, this is the most "mixed bag" report on 4e I've seen, IMO. I like that the distinction between Demons and Devils is being cleaned up. It was never clear to me (not being a Planescape guy, and not having bought a whole bunch of supplements on the matter). I'm glad there's more to distinguish them now than just "lawful" vs. "chaotic", as that was a bit bland. OTOH, I'm not wild about the change to the Erinyes/Succubus, or what it says about the judgment of the "planar creatures" developers. It makes me worried about what other changes / cuts they have in store.
I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but I think the planar arhetypes that need the most work are the "epitome of law" types. Neither the Modrons nor the ant-men ever really did anything for me. This probably won't fly, but I think the Lawful planars should be crystalline intelligences that want to slow grow and grow until they have imposed a beautiful, unchanging crystal matrix upon the entire multiverse. Once everything is absorbed into the matrix (not, "the Matrix"), all will be harmonics and light.
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
Giving this further thought, I do feel that it was a mistake to fold the erinyes and succubus together. I don't mind the succubus being a devil, but I think the erinyes could have been moved closer to their mythological roots and thus made distinct--even if they're both devils.
Ah, well. That's what MM2 is for.
As far as Planescape, I see no reason for this change to impact a (potential) future Planescape setting. Eberron, as others have pointed out, already has a cosmology vastly different from the assumed norm. So all a Planescape chapter on fiends has to do is start out with a sentence something like:
"Those sages who dwell amongst the planes have alternate theories as to the origin of the beings known as devils, theories that stand greatly at odds with accepted doctrine on the Material Plane."
Clean slate, to continue Planescape theology/history as it's always been.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
I was actually referring to simplifying the "crunch" bits, not the flavor background.
I see many cries for simplification from long-time gamers on the boards, but I'd wager most of them wouldn't like the long-running flavor thrown out to achieve it.
Actually, I'd prefer them to throw out as much assumed story as possible to free me up to build my own story. Simplify the story and leave me all the crunchy bits I need to build whatever my imagination dreams up.
__________________ It was one of those nights when you turn out the lights, and everything comes into view
The combat system should be based on the world design. The world design should not be based on the combat system.
My 4 year old ties a towel to her shoulders and pretends to be a superhero. Roleplaying is not between the covers of a book.
As an extension of that, if you tell me that any game is the same just because you roleplay the same, then as far as I am concerned, you don't get the point.
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1. As well covered, the Succubus and the Erinyes do NOT cover the the same ground - unless you mean the "attractive evil female humanoid with wings" ground, which is a pretty shallow reading of both.
Actually, it is a pretty accurate reading of both, when that reading is confined to the role they play in the D&D ruleset.
While the mythological basis is definitely much more varied, they really aren't all that far apart in terms of how they work when that mythology is coopted by D&D. For instance, my only real exposure to both succubi and Erinyes together was in the game Planecape: Torment, where you could bring the "fallen" Succubus Fall-from-Grace into the shop run by the Erinyes (... whose name I forget, but was something involving Eyes, I think ...). They didn't like each other. They looked pretty similar. The Erinyes tried to seduce the main character.
Not a great deal of variation, there.
__________________ "A rock on a stick has a 5' reach unless otherwise specified."
Last edited by Patryn of Elvenshae; 31st August 2007 at 12:20 AM..
Actually, it is a pretty accurate reading of both, when that reading is confined to the role they play in the D&D ruleset.
While the mythological basis is definitely much more varied, they really aren't all that far apart in terms of how they work when that mythology is coopted by D&D. For instance, my only real exposure to both succubi and Erinyes together was in the game Planecape: Torment, where you could bring the "fallen" Succubus Fall-from-Grace into the shop run by the Erinyes. They didn't like each other. They looked pretty similar. The Erinyes tried to seduce the main character.
Not a great deal of variation, there.
And that lack of variation is everywhere the erinyes turns up in 3-3.5 as far as I've seen. What do erinyes progress into in FC2? "Pleasure devils." What role do the erinyes near the end of Red Hand of Doom fill? I'll give a hint, it isn't a military role. They both are 'hot chicks' with at will charm monster. Etc., etc., etc.
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