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Oh yeah...and the whole 'too close to RW thing'...nah. Devils need a credible reason to be heinously nasty...and I think killing their deity fits the bill. Bible thumpers will thump over the demons/devils regardless, so if they're in the game (and the should be!) then let them be the nasty things they should be! And remember...they are there so the players can overcome the evil...which is a good thing.
It's not like there aren't plenty of gods to go around, anyway. What's one god more or less in the grand scheme of things?
__________________ Formerly known as Dr. Awkward
When you get to be a certain age, everything that is cool seems to be a lot of nonsensical, idiotic jibberish. The music that blares from the pimp rides makes no sense; it all sounds like a man with severe autism halfheartedly explaining human sexuality to a parrot, while in the background a dangerously unqualified Caribbean contractor rhythmically installs an automatic garage door opener. Bollocks.
--Jeffery Rowland
wigu.com
The D20 NPC Wiki needs YOU to post your characters! Try my non-asian, non-hocus-pocus martial artist class, the bruiser! While you're at it, also try my vitality/wound point system, intended to eliminate the "15 minute adventuring day." Number of posters so far added to my ignore list due to the enormity of their spelling and grammar: 6
Well, I, for one, am glad that outsiders are no longer based upon alignment. I'm looking forward to the not-in-your-face alignment of 4E (I'd look forward more to no alignment at all, but this is a good step).
And why is it okay to change rules, but not fluff? Good on WotC for putting a simpler structure in for these creatures that you don't need a Planescape PhD to know.
It wasn't intended to be. Please don't ascribe motives.
I don't like this.
If a person was to go throughout their day not intending to harm anyone, but in the process of daily life by complete accident harms another person (say, crashing into another's car or, to a less dramatic extent, bumping into someone), you don't tell the that person you hit, "Well, you shouldn't have been there when I was."
The same applies to being insulted even when no insult was intended. Please don't blame the insulted; merely apologize.
There are F types of people in this world...
People who understand hexidecimial.
People who don't.
People wh... oh, dammit, I have to come up with 13 more of these?
There are F types of people in this world...
People who understand hexidecimial.
People who don't.
People wh... oh, dammit, I have to come up with 13 more of these?
Last edited by getgoldcardsoul; 31st August 2007 at 12:33 AM..
Reason: Extra smiley to make sure people know I'm kidding... ;)
As for the looks of demons and devils, for the longest while I have held the opinion that devils should be more humanoid, but with horns, wings and tails, a very draconic appearance. Because oppressive law can be described as "draconic", and LE is all about oppressive law.
Well, that's all folks. I'm out. Goodbye, good night, that's it. I'm done with even the idea of 4e. This is just a STUPID change to make that completely invalidates all the old material on the planes. To hell with it, and to hell with WotC. I'll stick with 3.5 for... well, as long as it takes for them to realize all these changes are a bad idea. (See you in 2010 or so.)
__________________ What's that big glowing thing in the sky called again?
Well, that's all folks. I'm out. Goodbye, good night, that's it. I'm done with even the idea of 4e. This is just a STUPID change to make that completely invalidates all the old material on the planes. To hell with it, and to hell with WotC. I'll stick with 3.5 for... well, as long as it takes for them to realize all these changes are a bad idea. (See you in 2010 or so.)
I must say, I read that and thought: Great! I really like the idea to be able to describe a monster to my (not very D&D Cosmology firm) group and they will be able to guess wether its a Demon or a Devil. (Up until know, that had more to do with a Know Planes Check)
So, might be a minority, but I do see this having a positive effect on my game. At the end of the day, thats all I care for.
Oh, and about the religious people might get angry stuff, I can't commend on that. There never was a RPG Witch Hunt in Germany afaik, and if one takes a look at the most successfull RPG here (Dark Eye), well, lets just say D&D is a really good little child :-)
I've been playing D&D since around 1981. And I've hated the whole Great Wheel cosmology pretty much from day one. It's just so *silly*, and codifies alignment way too much, IMHO.
I for one am very glad to see it go, and something better take it's place. No way is the Great Wheel "essential to D&D". (And no, I've never liked Planescape, either.)
__________________ "All right, I am not the Shadow. You have nothing at all to worry about. Except, oh, wait, I'm pointing a gun at you."
... merging succubus and eryines? Excuse me? Not only is that an incredibly poor writing decision - to attempt to merge two creatures that serve *entirely* different, parallel and *contrasting* roles... but I find that on some level personally offensive. They're alike only in that they're "hot females" - does this mean the new writing team thinks one "hot female" is interchangeable with the other? Did they even bother to read the original material on the roles of the two creatures or will they be handwaving that off as something they don't have the time to do or can't find the books for researching the previous material?
Mind you - if they're portraying all of this as a non-great wheel cosmology or a myth, hey, no skin off my back. But otherwise it sounds like a lazy and poorly executed idea.
Keep in mind the Erynies as avenger thing came around in 3.5, not in older material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster Manual, 1977
The erinyes are devils common to Hell's second plane as well as the kind most commonly sent forth to garner more souls. They are female but can appear as male.[snip combat stats]They will peruse evil persons unceasingly in order to take them alive into hell. They will sometimes bargain with other, hoping to tempt them into doing evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium
Habitat/Society: Erinyes are solitary baatezu, rarely wen in groups of any kind. They are cunning and evil, securing their position amongst the baatezu as tempters of mortals. Even though the erinyes we lesser baatezu, they have a special station in the Nine Hells. As tempters, they report directly to the Dark Eight and are outside the normal chain of command.[snip]
As tempters, the erinyes have a special power that none of the other baatezu-even the great pit fiends-have; the ability to pass into the Prime Material plane for short periods of time. They do this to attempt to trick and lure mortals back to the Nine Hells with them- They cannot bring anyone or anything with them when they pass into the Prime Material plane, and they can only bring one person back with them when they pass back into the Nine Hells- They cannot bring back inorganic matter, so victims will arrive in the Nine Hells without possessions. Once on the Prime Material plane, the Erinyes will seek out a mortal to lure back to the Nine Hells. Using its charm person power and its ability to assume a comely male or female form, the Erinyes will try to seduce the mortal. This done, it can transport the mortal and itself back to the Nine Hells.
Mortals so trapped are doomed to die in the inhuman plains of the Nine Hells unless their own magical strengths can save them. When a mortal dies this way, he will become a lemure and be doomed to serve forever as a soldier of the Nine Hells- It is because of this power to tempt and doom mortals that the Erinyes are respected by all baatezu.
{editors note: the write-up in The Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix is nearly identical, except referencing Baator instead of the Nine Hells and some simple word choices. For the purposes of discussion, they are practically identical}
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster Manual 3.0, 2000
Like their demonic counterparts, the succubi, erinyes seek to tempt mortals into depravity. Unlike other devils, erinyes appear as attractive humans, resembling very comely women except for their huge, feathery wings and sinister eyes. They are about 6 feet tall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster Manual v3.5
Rumor in the underworld tells that the first erinyes were angels who fell from their lofty heights because of some temptation or misdeed. Now, the skies of the Nine Hells are litterered with their descendants. Erinyes serve as scouts, servants, and even concubines for powerful devils. Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men. They’re not above taking advantage of being mistaken for the celestials that legend says they once were. An erinyes stands about 6 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds.
So you can see, Erinyes as temptress's with different wings WERE the norm until 3.5. Its also easy to see they DO share a similar position in the game: evil winged hawt woman of doom. And since succubi is a more familiar name, guess which one is being kept in 4e...
So you can see, Erinyes as temptress's with different wings WERE the norm until 3.5. Its also easy to see they DO share a similar position in the game
Alot of fiends are interested in collecting mortal souls, but they do so in drastically different ways. Should we combine them all?
Should we merge glabrezu into succubi, since they're demonic tempters as well? Perhaps tossing in arcanaloths and harvester devils as well? Rename them as Temptation Fiends, and leave it at that?
Hyperbole aside, there's a point where streamlining jumps the shark. Combining Succubi and Erinyes into one monster risks jumping over, well, this thing:
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
Alot of fiends are interested in collecting mortal souls, but they do so in drastically different ways. Should we combine them all?
Should we merge glabrezu into succubi, since they're demonic tempters as well?
I did not knew that glabrezu were winged beautiful humanoid fiends tempting mortal by seducing them...
Anyway, this whole thing is getting annoying : if I understand correctly, the erinyes is not merged with the succubi, it is replaced by the succubi, because fiends are no more defined by their alignment (because 4e don't care that much about it) but by, gasp, their role.
So, goodbye erinyes, see you later in the MM2. And this time, probably with a very different outlook.
I wonder whats next the powers that be decide that Balors and Pit Fiends are too much alike and decide one of them has got to go? I don't like it.
Well, unlike the Succubus, who's concept is pretty darn reliant on being able to pass as humanoid, the Pit Fiends and Balors aren't terribly bound in appearance to fulfill their functions.
So I'd expect that if any major thematic changes are going to affect those two creatures, it will simply be making Pit Fiends to look more humanoid and Balors to look more monsterous,
I am pleased by the implication that devils might show a side of Evil that isn't just about being stupidly violent. Let them be the corrupt diplomats, clawing their way to the top of every pile, through careful planning and manipulation. Let them be the hidden hand behind the overthrow of the king, and the subsequent totalitarian government. Devils should be orchestrating the closing of the orphanage, turning all the orphans out into the street to starve--or steal, and thereby run afoul of the devil-inspired police state.
Let the demons take over completely the role of violent, destructive lunatics, leaving the devils with the role of despicable masterminds.
Evil doesn't always have to be violent. It can also be simply cold, calculating, and determined to take every advantage it can. If they take it in this direction, I endorse the change.
__________________ Formerly known as Dr. Awkward
When you get to be a certain age, everything that is cool seems to be a lot of nonsensical, idiotic jibberish. The music that blares from the pimp rides makes no sense; it all sounds like a man with severe autism halfheartedly explaining human sexuality to a parrot, while in the background a dangerously unqualified Caribbean contractor rhythmically installs an automatic garage door opener. Bollocks.
--Jeffery Rowland
wigu.com
The D20 NPC Wiki needs YOU to post your characters! Try my non-asian, non-hocus-pocus martial artist class, the bruiser! While you're at it, also try my vitality/wound point system, intended to eliminate the "15 minute adventuring day." Number of posters so far added to my ignore list due to the enormity of their spelling and grammar: 6
The Succubus/Erinyes thing... I understand why they're getting merged. The Erinyes in myth have a far, far stronger role than they've ever had in D&D. They're "just another monster" in 3e. They only really work in a low-magic world in their original purpose. (They come to punish you? I've already lost my family to giants... bring on the Erinyes!)
Keep in mind the Erynies as avenger thing came around in 3.5, not in older material.
Aeschylus predates Gygax by a few years...
But seriously, you have a point. The way they were represented in D&D those two monsters were perhaps too similar... I can see the case for dropping one. Hopefully, the Erinyes can come back in alter manual with her proper role restores as we had already argued....
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