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Well, I certainly will miss Planescape, but these tidbits sound pretty much perfect for the Points of Light implied setting.
I really like where this is going. Except for real-world mythological deities. For whatever reason it remains the only non-starter in a campaign setting for me, but I figure I can rip them out whole cloth come 4e.
__________________ If there's a Homer that relevant to the game as I've played it, it's Simpson, not the author of the Iliad. - Mallus Playing in:Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil having paused at the door to the Inner Fane: 'the Boy' (H Sor 11), Father Sebastian Graythorne (H Clr 11, Pelor), Sir Gavin Dantaros (H Ftr 2/Pal 9, Pelor, mine), Smash II (Orc Bbn 1/Ftr 9, brother of Smash who got Destructioned in his first combat). Law's Player Style says Storyteller 83%, Butt-kicker 83%, Power Gamer 67%, Specialist 58%, Tactician 58%, Method Actor 50%, Casual Gamer 42%. Just so you know.
Put me in the column of liking the change. Makes more sense to me. The old categorizations were pretty haphazard anyways. This does provide a great deal more clarity, and was something I was doing on my own already.
'Cause, despite what they write for fluff in official products, I can still re-write/re-work to fit my own campaign.
Does seem like they're changing something just to change it, I'd have to agree... and I don't see why the chaos/order conflict is obscure -- it gives some real heft to alignment.
Anyway, the erinyes/succubus merger kind of bothers me a bit. I don't want to lose any monsters! Besides, one thing that strikes me as ironic about getting rid of the erinyes is that they're the devil that currently originated as a fallen angel.
I deed. A lot. Do you have a real arguments to sustain your point of view, rather than shooting "stupid, ignorant!" ?
I did no such thing. However, there was a very clear distinction between the two evil outsiders in both Planescape and all 3.x books, which to me had to mean that you are unfamiliar with material on the matter.
Let's put it like this: I can sit here and quote devil/demon differences from plane-related sourcebooks for days. Can you please elaborate on your very brief point stating that you felt they were the same?
I'm also really annoyed at the succubus/erinyes merger. No, they're not holding similar territory at all. They both come from very solid real-world mythological backgrounds, they fill completely different archetypal roles (tempter versus avenger,) and while they had similar statistics in earlier versions, 3.5 deliberately split them up. As for whether the succubus should be a devil, that depends on their purposes. If the demons are now otherworldly horrors previously associated more directly with the Far Realms, then fine. But arguably at least the core demons represented various states of temptation or emotional excesses that give way to evil, and in that case a humanoid demon representing lust makes perfect sense.
Speaking of which, are we even going to have a Far Realm in 4e? Or is that still an unknown? Either way, this change does make me nervous. I judge a system by, among other things, how many house rules I need to implement to even start running it, and this could be my first one out of the gate, depending on how many other races get dumped in core.
I have always considered other planar creatures, such as solars, planetars, demons, and devils to be "extreme" examples of their alignments, so I think having their appearance being much more standardized among devils fits with my views. So if they go with a lot of random and even freakish physical forms and appearances for demons that will rock.
As for the "origins", I have always stuck with the origin of devils that is very widely believed in the real world. Demons, heck, the greater the variety of origin stories I have the better.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
- Devils are angels who rebelled. They rose up against the deity they served and murdered him. The crime of deicide is unimaginably perverse for angels, and hence devils were cursed and imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
I am wondering how many were the original devils and how long ago did this rebellion happen, since the answers to these questions could make a lot of difference in the cosmology.
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- The Nine Hells are what became of the murdered deity's divine realm after his death.
Unless the Nine Hells in 4E are much smaller than now, I'd guess that, for some reason, Baator expanded considerably after the deity's death; the alternative implies that 4E gods are (or at least this god was) much more powerful than the current norm.
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The Hells are the devils' prison, and it is difficult for them to get out without mortal aid.
Interesting.
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One consequence of this: the erinyes and the succubus were holding down pretty similar territory, so we've decided that they're the same monster, called the succubus, and it's a devil.
I don't see the need for this: sucubbus methods and allegiances are very different from those of the erinyes. Also, it shouldn't be too hard to put a sidebar in one of the fiendish temptress' description, indicating that you can use the same (or similar) stats for both, and describing the non-mechanical differences between them.
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- Ice devils don't look like other devils. We've decided that they are actually a demonic/yugoloth race... one that was entrapped by Mephistopheles long ago in an infernal contract. So ice devils hate other devils, retain their insect-like appearance, and have a special loyalty to Mephistopheles. It's one of the reasons why Asmodeus has never chosen to move against Mephistopheles. Asmodeus would of course win if he did, but that would let the ice devils out of their contract.
Flavorful explanation for their non-humanoid appearence. But I'm intrigued: why would Asmodeus want to move against Mephistopheles?
To clarify, I would almost be surprised if there were no fundamentalist group that latched onto the whole, " We killed God " aspect of the devils background. Yes, similar things happened in other religions, but there aren't exactly a lot of devout followers of the Olympians running around. It's like asking for a resurgence of anti-D&D movement.
__________________ -Kaodi
Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,
Is the immediate jewel of their souls.
Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him
And makes me poor indeed.
-Iago, Shakespeare's Othello, Act III. Scene III. Lines 180-186.
I don't see the need for this: sucubbus methods and allegiances are very different from those of the erinyes.
I suppose the reasoning is that they only need one kind of hawt chixx0rs with bat wings. I consider that pretty weak reasoning. I mean, you can never have too much of that....
But seriously, in my campaign, I was using erinyes in their avenger role as servants of Hekate.
To clarify, I would almost be surprised if there were no fundamentalist group that latched onto the whole, " We killed God " aspect of the devils background. Yes, similar things happened in other religions, but there aren't exactly a lot of devout followers of the Olympians running around. It's like asking for a resurgence of anti-D&D movement.
The twisted little origin for gelugons might be a really nifty idea, but we'll see how the fluff handles this. I can be won over on this one. 'loth origin gelugons, bound by contract and chaffing against it. This could really be developed into some cool stuff. EDIT: 10 minutes later, I'm digging this one.
Me, too (provisionally, until we see the full extent of the changes).
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Originally Posted by Shemeska
Merging succubi and erinyes is a mistake. A really bad mistake. I can't immediately see how to reconcile this with the material already out there, and even produced in the past year. Hmm. Jacobs did some really awesome material with Malcanthet and her rivals, and this change really makes moving them forward into 4th difficult, unless we want to have succubi/erinyes populating both Baator and the Abyss, having split in an ancient ideological schism (or the CE ones having been perverted by X Abyssal lord, obyrith, etc). The in-game rationalization here needs to be amazing or else this change may really, really present difficulties.
Ditto. Changes in fluff are easy enough to ignore, but crunchy overhauls are irritating.
__________________ "We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
Wait, if devils are angels who betrayed their god, does it mean that in 4e all gods (including evil ones) use angels as their servants?
I think it's implied that it was a good god. Put me in the camp of liking the change.
As for the succubus/erinyes thing, I'm not sure I really see "avenging" as a devilish trait. Conforming to the traditional sins (Lust, in this case) seems like a more solid plan for the new devils.
Wait, if devils are angels who betrayed their god, does it mean that in 4e all gods (including evil ones) use angels as their servants?
I would like it if the deault setting had just that. Astral and/or etheral planes, elemental planes, and then just 'heavens' and 'hells'...without the Great Wheel. Save that for Planescape, but for the new vanilla D&D, all I need is angels and demons/devils.
On the temptresses: as much as I like the name Erinyes (greek origin, the Furies), the niche of the seductress fiend mythologically belongs to the Succubi (jewish origin, via Lilith) lock, stock and barrel.
Edit: GSHamster beat me to it.
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Originally Posted by GSHamster
As for the succubus/erinyes thing, I'm not sure I really see "avenging" as a devilish trait. Conforming to the traditional sins (Lust, in this case) seems like a more solid plan for the new devils.
__________________ Orhhh! Ehihihi... Great warrior. Woarhuhuh huhuhu... Wars not make one great hehehmhm...
Last edited by Aexalon; 30th August 2007 at 08:08 PM..
Reason: reacting to posting frenzy.
I think it's implied that it was a good god. Put me in the camp of liking the change.
I don't think it matters. If the only way to become a devil is to betray your god (as I understood from the article), then devils don't serve any gods. Demons might, but I have a feeling that they are independant force on their own.
Another possibility is that each god's entry states what type of outsiders he commands. There are demons, slaadi, formians, yugoloths, angels, archons, and so on.
Merging succubi and erinyes is a mistake. A really bad mistake. I can't immediately see how to reconcile this with the material already out there, and even produced in the past year. Hmm. Jacobs did some really awesome material with Malcanthet and her rivals, and this change really makes moving them forward into 4th difficult, unless we want to have succubi/erinyes populating both Baator and the Abyss, having split in an ancient ideological schism (or the CE ones having been perverted by X Abyssal lord, obyrith, etc). The in-game rationalization here needs to be amazing or else this change may really, really present difficulties.
Ugh. This is the first thing I've seen than makes we want to steer far, far away from 4e.
"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." - Batman, Batman Begins "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight "Yeah, I can fly." - Tony Stark, Iron Man
Inside my hands these petals browned;
dried up falling to the ground,
but it was already too late now.
I pushed my fingers through the earth,
returned this flower to the dirt;
so it could live, I walked away now."
Rise Against - "The Good Left Undone"
I don't think it matters. If the only way to become a devil is to betray your god (as I understood from the article), then devils don't serve any gods. Demons might, but I have a feeling that they are independant force on their own.
Another possibility is that each god's entry states what type of outsiders he commands. There are demons, slaadi, formians, yugoloths, angels, archons, and so on.
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