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The big positive for me here is he never uses the words Baator or Baatezu. I'm hoping we're back to just calling devils devils and the Nine Hells the Nine Hells.
The succubus/erinyes thing in there is really the only thing that bothers me, mostly because of the impact on the whole Demonomicon series (and the Savage Tide Adventure Path.)
I'm failing to see how the benefits of this move can possibly outweigh the drawbacks.
Retconning creatures that have belonged to a specific type since 1e (or pre-1e) causes numerous problems for anyone wishing to continue campaigns or use materials from past editions.
This is a huge blow to backward compatibility. The Fiendish Codices and Demonomicon series of articles (both wildly popular and well-respected) have just been rendered flawed for reference in 4e.
I don't mind changes to the origin, or what-have-you, but changing creature types is problematic. Why not just leave them out and create something new, achieving the same end result without any of the resulting chaos? Telling me that succubi won't be included will disappoint me, but I can still hold out hope that they will be added later or can convert them myself. Telling me succubi are now devils is far more work to undo.
"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." - Batman, Batman Begins "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight "Yeah, I can fly." - Tony Stark, Iron Man
Inside my hands these petals browned;
dried up falling to the ground,
but it was already too late now.
I pushed my fingers through the earth,
returned this flower to the dirt;
so it could live, I walked away now."
Rise Against - "The Good Left Undone"
Last edited by Shade; 30th August 2007 at 09:01 PM..
However, I felt a disturbance in the force, as if millions of Planescape's fan suddenly cried in horror...
This is just the first of many disturbances in the force which will be caused by the screams of Planescape fans in regards to the changes that are being made in 4e. I'm expecting that the next retconn would involve Lady of Pain or Sigil itself.
I think that the new direction for the game is putting less emphasis on keeping "story" elements consistent with previous editions. Much like there is little emphasis on keeping mechanics elements from a previous edition just for the sake of them being "sacred cows".
In fact, in one of the GenCon interviews one of the main designers stated they were told to design the game without being concerned about breaking the "sacred cows." Obviously that included the "profane cows."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer
For example, these changes aren't going to impact Eberron much at all because Eberron has:
* No Asmodeus
* No Nine Hells
* Not really much of a distinction between devils and demons anyway
Plus, WotC has avoided any serious coverage of the planes in Eberron. We have Keith giving his point of view, but that's not "canon" and we might end up with a different point of view when we see such a book.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
Last edited by Glyfair; 30th August 2007 at 09:00 PM..
I think they are setting down the pawns so that they will act in a way to spur interesting things and adventures happen to the PCs.
Devils look humanoid so that they may make infernal deals with PCs and plot-NPCs Faust-style. (Whitout provoking initiative.)
Demons look horrible and strange so that they can scare the living daylights out of the players. (So to invite gratuitous viloence.)
I'll bet we'll see more of these changes. I.e. In the Points of Light implied setting heavy taxes are commonly exerted on the populace. Why? So that the PCs can play Robin Hood. Angels will be real powerful but they will be restrained from meddling in the Prime Material due to some hokey contract. Why? So that they must ask PCs to do the work for them.
I don't mind any changes to devils or demons myself. I never liked Great Wheel cosmology, and I always thought the demon/devil distinction as it stood was very strange. This change makes it move a bit closer to making sense. Also, I am glad the Erinyes has been folded into the Succubus. The Erinyes of myth is nothing like its classic D&D version. The ones of Greek myth are not even necessarily evil, let alone demonic or devilish, and they certainly arn't beautiful devil women with wings. They are monsterous women with beastial faces.
However I can't say that I really like this article as a whole. It simply does not go far enough. It implies the continuation of the Great Wheel as core, which seriously undermines the wonderful genericness of their "Points of Light" concept. It continues the highly confused and flawed "Polyhteism, except every god has angels serving him and acts like a Monotheistic deity" nonsense that has filled D&D so far.
I would prefer it if they just abandoned all the specifics like the Nine Hells or background story for the origins of demons entirely, and left the Monster Manual as generic and setting-free as possible. In fact, I would prefer it if there was no assumption of other planes and planehopping in the core books.
To clarify, I would almost be surprised if there were no fundamentalist group that latched onto the whole, " We killed God " aspect of the devils background. Yes, similar things happened in other religions, but there aren't exactly a lot of devout followers of the Olympians running around. It's like asking for a resurgence of anti-D&D movement.
Please don't ascribe actions to overly jumpy Christians. The devils killed their god. They didn't kill God. Someone who can't make that distinction is not likely to need to go this far into the books to find better stuff to object to.
4E has rituals, use them, they're magic; Want to see the greatest thing you will ever see? then click; You can use “Earth” as a D&D setting; Origins of The Rouse; (look for it) The Rouse responds; (look for it) One can appreciate both old and new D&D.
I did no such thing. However, there was a very clear distinction between the two evil outsiders in both Planescape and all 3.x books, which to me had to mean that you are unfamiliar with material on the matter.
Yeah, in function but not in form. There were no real reason why most fiends looked how they looked, and unless you knew the specific type of fiend you couldn't say, on seeing one, if it was a tanar'ri, yugoloth, baatezu, or other miscellaneous fiend family.
In short, if you take a, say, Paelirion, should that be a devil or a demon? Or maybe a daemon? A particularly ugly Slaad?
Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that the point? [commenting on someone else's complaint about change] They're not trying to reconcile with material already out there, they're trying to clean up material already out there and make it make more sense.
I'm with Moog---I really dislike the Great Wheel, and as far as I'm concerned in my campaign, a fiend is a fiend is a fiend, and I make no distinction between devils, demons, yugs, oni, or any other variety. So I'm actually cool with them creating a reason for me to care about the distinction, because previously I never have.
I'm with Moog and Hobo.
There is nothing stopping WOTC with creating a Planescape setting using the old assumptions of that setting and reintroducing erinyes, etc.
Please don't ascribe actions to overly jumpy Christians. The devils killed their god. They didn't kill God. Someone who can't make that distinction is not likely to need to go this far into the books to find better stuff to object to.
Indeed, this reminds me of the first article on the Nine Hells that had stats for Satan/Lucifer. The difference is that in this version they killed him instead of Asmodeus taking over after "driving him off."
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
But, since I use basically the planescape styled cosmology of all the game worlds, universe, far realm, etc...I can deal with it. Will just convert (the 3.5E versions over to 4E and give them whatever weapons i think they should have...ie. balor a vorpal sword and whip, marilith - 6 magical weapons, pit fiend nothing unless it really wants one, etc).
Also, i preffered how tanar'ri were created by the raw essence of chaos/magic while the baatezu were created from teh blood as asmodeus when he fell.
There is nothing stopping WOTC with creating a Planescape setting using the old assumptions of that setting and reintroducing erinyes, etc.
And providing stats for succubi and other demons and devils "retconned" into different, conflicting types? Doesn't that fly in the face of the "simplification" process to have two different monster entries for the same exact creatures?
Like I posted upthread, the earliest we can expect anything Planescape-related is 2010.
"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." - Batman, Batman Begins "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight "Yeah, I can fly." - Tony Stark, Iron Man
Inside my hands these petals browned;
dried up falling to the ground,
but it was already too late now.
I pushed my fingers through the earth,
returned this flower to the dirt;
so it could live, I walked away now."
Rise Against - "The Good Left Undone"
I wonder if alignment is getting a real overhaul. The big difference between devils and demons was the law-chaos spectrum. Planar fluff aside, allow me this for brevity, there is a new paradigm in town. If the new morality is shades of grey, you might need to redefine some iconic alignment creatures. Think of the modrons! The Modrons!
I think I would have had less of a problem if they had made the erinyes and the succubus a yugoloth that played/manipulated everyone.
I don't like the fallen angel aspect; however as has been pointed out several myths include such an instance.
Before I worry too much, I'd like to find out what is happening to alignment. If alignment has been changed greatly then the whole great wheel picture is changed anyway.
__________________ "The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization." Sigmund Freud
"Meekness: Uncommon patience in planning a revenge that is worth while." Ambrose Bierce
"In heaven all the interesting people are missing." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Coming home from very lonely places, all of us go a little mad: whether from great personal success, or just an all-night drive, we are the sole survivors of a world no one else has ever seen." John le Carre
Not sure how I feel, other than I like the fact that the planes had different types of outsiders associated with them. Also, some demon lord types should have the appearance of starting/being humanoid, shouldn't they? Some demons should be corrupted/fallen humans that attained great power, shouldn't they? I really, really like the fluff in both the recent demon and devil books, two very well received books, I believe. Why change that fluff?
4E has rituals, use them, they're magic;
Want to see the greatest thing you will ever see? then 
You can use “Earth” as a D&D 
The Rouse 
One can appreciate both old and new D&D.
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