Insight Skill

[olshanski]

In David Noonan's Blog he mentions the "Insight" skill.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread...1#post13987891

Tell us more about round 2! What about the Insight DCs?

It sounds to me like a meta-game style roll used for solving puzzles. The "Insight" skill is equivalent to what we would call "Problem Solving" or "Critical Thinking".

If the character makes an "insight" roll, he gets a major clue (or an automatic success) about solving the puzzle or deciphering the answer. Otherwise, it is up to the players to solve it themselves. Thus, insight can be the crutch that allows problem solving.

In 3.5, you could have a character with a 24 INT, and any puzzle thought up by a measly 16 INT character should be gravy to the 24 INT. You can also argue that even if the player cannot solve the 6-variable logic puzzle, then the character should still be able to.

Now change the paradigm a bit. INT represents "book-learning" or memorization. There is no mechanic for "problem solving". A character might have a 30 INT but not be able to rebuild a carbuerator without a manual. Someone else might have a 12 INT, but have good problem-solving skills, and they could handle the challenge...

So then you need a new skill for problem solving that is distinct from INT and you call it "Insight". Since skills presumably go up automatically a-la SAGA, then you have a case where a 24th level character is going to have enough insight to solve a puzzle that a 4th level character cannot... unless that 4th level character has focus in "Insight".

[Simia Saturnalia]

I'm fairly sure Insight came up in regards to social challenges...

[szilard]

My guess is that Insight is a new skill that, among other things, killed Sense Motive and took its stuff.

-Stuart

[Irda Ranger]

Tabletop RPG DM's have always had a problem - how do you tell you PC's the clues they need to solve a puzzle, without being all obvious about it? Sure, the curtain is askew, but how you mention that without the PC's immediately meta-gaming the fact that you did?

I think the Insight skills is a good way of formalize which PC's are better at putting together visual and other non-verbal clues.

Non-Trained: Han Solo. You pay closer attention than the average peasant.
Trained: Rick Deckard. You have been trained to notice clues.
Focused: Monk. It's like you can read minds.

[Irda Ranger]

Originally Posted by szilard

My guess is that Insight is a new skill that, among other things, killed Sense Motive and took its stuff.

-Stuart

Right. Only it applies to places and objects, not just people and body language.

[Celebrim]

Originally Posted by szilard

My guess is that Insight is a new skill that, among other things, killed Sense Motive and took its stuff.

I believe that this is correct.

I really hope that they don't make a mechanic like this:

DM: You see a riddle on the wall.
PC: I make an insight check to see if I can solve it. *dice clatter*
DM: After a few moments the answer comes to you. The answer is 'the moon'. Make another insight check.
PC: *dice clatter*
DM: It occurs to you that there is moon in the overhead fresco. Perhaps you should check it out?

Strictly speaking, that's 'realistic'. It avoids player knowledge and allows a player to play a character of any intelligence in a consistant manner regardless of his actual ability. Your 'dumb' barbarian can't solve riddles. Your smart Wizard solves them with ease, even if you've know head for riddles. Anything else is strictly speaking, metagaming.

But, it isn't fun. Unrealistic reliance on player knowledge and ability, however unelegant it is from a simulationist perspective, makes for a better game.

[olshanski]

So what finds secret compartments/doors?

Perception or Insight?

[ehren37]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

I believe that this is correct.

I really hope that they don't make a mechanic like this:

DM: You see a riddle on the wall.
PC: I make an insight check to see if I can solve it. *dice clatter*
DM: After a few moments the answer comes to you. The answer is 'the moon'. Make another insight check.
PC: *dice clatter*
DM: It occurs to you that there is moon in the overhead fresco. Perhaps you should check it out?

Strictly speaking, that's 'realistic'. It avoids player knowledge and allows a player to play a character of any intelligence in a consistant manner regardless of his actual ability. Your 'dumb' barbarian can't solve riddles. Your smart Wizard solves them with ease, even if you've know head for riddles. Anything else is strictly speaking, metagaming.

But, it isn't fun. Unrealistic reliance on player knowledge and ability, however unelegant it is from a simulationist perspective, makes for a better game.

Call of Cthulhu uses "idea" rolls, and I dont think anyone woudl say that it removes the player element from problem solving or investigation.

[Wormwood]

Originally Posted by ehren37

Call of Cthulhu uses "idea" rolls, and I dont think anyone woudl say that it removes the player element from problem solving or investigation.

D&D could definitely use both an Idea and Luck mechanic, now that I think about it.

[theredrobedwizard]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

I believe that this is correct.

I really hope that they don't make a mechanic like this:

DM: You see a riddle on the wall.
PC: I make an insight check to see if I can solve it. *dice clatter*
DM: After a few moments the answer comes to you. The answer is 'the moon'. Make another insight check.
PC: *dice clatter*
DM: It occurs to you that there is moon in the overhead fresco. Perhaps you should check it out?

Strictly speaking, that's 'realistic'. It avoids player knowledge and allows a player to play a character of any intelligence in a consistant manner regardless of his actual ability. Your 'dumb' barbarian can't solve riddles. Your smart Wizard solves them with ease, even if you've know head for riddles. Anything else is strictly speaking, metagaming.

But, it isn't fun. Unrealistic reliance on player knowledge and ability, however unelegant it is from a simulationist perspective, makes for a better game.

This, of course, leads to the debate of "why should real life Intelligence and Charisma have any effect on your imaginary character, when real life Strength and Constitution don't?".

It takes some real willpower to be a smart guy playing a stupid character not solving every riddle posed to us; instead, waiting for the other characters to solve the problem. I hate that. A 6 Int, 8 Wis Half-Orc Barbarian shouldn't be solving complex, multi-variable riddles; even if his player can easily solve them. Same thing with well spoken people playing 6 Charisma Dwarf Fighters as though they're honey-tongued charlatans.

To put it another way, why can't my friend Nate get a bonus on his attack rolls from his real life phenomenal strength and weapon training?

Hence, Insight skill giving hints/answers to riddles in game. See also Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate.

-TRRW

[Celebrim]

Originally Posted by theredrobedwizard

This, of course, leads to the debate of "why should real life Intelligence and Charisma have any effect on your imaginary character, when real life Strength and Constitution don't?".

Mainly because its easier and safer to arrange for a riddle to be solved in my dining room, than it is to arrange a battle with a 30' long dragon.

It takes some real willpower to be a smart guy playing a stupid character not solving every riddle posed to us; instead, waiting for the other characters to solve the problem.

No, it just takes a good RPer who is willing to enjoy a dumb character for what it is, and creative enough to insert hints to the solution into his role play that - like Forest Gump - the character himself is ignorant of. That would for me prove the player's intelligence even more than solving the riddle would.

If you can't play a stupid character and enjoy it, you shouldn't play one.

[szilard]

Originally Posted by Irda Ranger

Right. Only it applies to places and objects, not just people and body language.

It might, but do we have any evidence of this?

-Stuart

[shilsen]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

No, it just takes a good RPer who is willing to enjoy a dumb character for what it is, and creative enough to insert hints to the solution into his role play that - like Forest Gump - the character himself is ignorant of. That would for me prove the player's intelligence even more than solving the riddle would.

If you can't play a stupid character and enjoy it, you shouldn't play one.

What about if you want to play a character who's smarter than you? Is it asking too much for your 24 Int PC to benefit from things like an Insight skill? As ehren37 pointed out above, it's hardly as if this is a completely new mechanic in gaming, nor is it likely to seriously limit the player's role in the game.

[Cadfan]

I wouldn't really like a "solve puzzles" skill. First, because its a little too metagame for me. Second, because its ridiculous on its face. Earlier editions had ridiculous puzzles where you could unlock the door to an ancient crypt by solving a riddle or a tower of hanoi or whatnot. That was dumb. It made players figure things out on their own, which is cool when it works, but the concept of a door that opens if you solve a tower of hanoi is terrible.

Keeping the tower of hanoi, and adding a "solve towers of hanoi" skill, would be extra dumb. It would be keeping the dumbest part of old D&D puzzle design, and adding in the dumbest possible part of modern D&D skill design.

Fortunately, I am very, very sure that Insight is not a "solve puzzles" skill. I can't know it for a 100% certain fact, but it would seem to go against a lot of the 4e design philosophy on traps and non combat encounters, as described in design and development journals over the past year.

I'm guessing that its a skill that ate Decipher Script, Sense Motive, certain aspects of Knowledge checks including checks to obtain information about monsters, or some combination thereof.

The closest I could see it being to a "solve puzzles" skill might be a "get clue" skill. That wouldn't be so bad. It would add another aspect to trap/puzzle design, essentially by being a partner to the Search skill in puzzle solving.

[wedgeski]

Sounds to me like a replacement for Knowledge checks designed to give you information about monsters. Maybe 'Insight' translates to a mechanical advantage during a fight.