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They've said that the druid heals as well as the cleric in an interview. The only ones who should be allowed to do that are leaders. But they've said that the Druid's role is more of a hybrid. I'm guessing Leader/Striker or Leader/Controller.
They also said that one of the defining characteristics of the Druid is his shapechange ability, because no one else can do that.
So I fully expect a build or version fo the druid to be focused on shapechanging, with a few minor spells in his pocket.
I didn't really like this class. It just didn't feel... right. The feel for it was weird.
I'd be much happier with the Society Mind that was made by a third party. It's a class that's sort've a telepathic hive-mind, sharing powers, etc etc. I could easily see them operating like a telepathic Warlord.
I didn't really like this class. It just didn't feel... right. The feel for it was weird.
Well besides being somewhat like 'Psionic X' it was really only half of a class, since the Ardent and the Divine Mind originally were two parts of one class that was deemed too powerful.
Since there's precendent for combining two or more 3E classes into one 4E class (e.g. ranger & scout), I'd hope we'll see the Ardent and Divine Mind being combined, too. IF they make a reapperance at all.
I wouldn't really mind if they were not converted. They already stated they wouldn't try to fill the whole power source / role matrix. So, it's probably even more likely there won't be a psionic leader class.
Some people who want mind readers and telekinetics don't want kung fu and ninja.
Some people who want kung fu and ninja don't want mind readers and telekinetics.
While they might be the same thing, there are two different "feels" or "genres" to both: one is oriental, the other is sci-fi.
So, shoe-horning both into the same book, or under the same power source, is probably going to irritate both camps. There is some overlap, but about as much overlap as "I want divine magic without shooting fireballs" "I want arcane magic without healing".
Should there be a voodoo, chakra, zen, or any other similar old world mysticism power source too? Or are you willing to let voodoo be part of the shadow power source, chakra psionic, zen (druid-like-primal). Come on ki or chi needs to remain in the real world, it needs to get gobbled up by high end martial exploits and psionic powers.
BTW, I would not feel cheated if my monk had psionic power source or if my samurai had a martial power source etc. The two different feels you note should be determined by the players, the fluff, and most importantly the DM.
A high speculation for a power source: Deity! Godlyness for the gods. They get their power from somewhere right...
__________________ Sadrik
Last edited by Sadrik; 22nd April 2008 at 04:55 PM..
My list of needs and wants for future PHBs:
new Martial Classes: martial (Controller)
new Arcane Classes: Bard (Leader), Swordmage (Defender), Artificer (Leader)
new Divine Classes: divine (Striker), divine (Controller)
Primal Classes: Barbarian (Defender), Druid (Striker), Shaman (Leader), Sorcerer (Controller)
Psionic Classes: Telepath (Leader/Controller), Keneticist (Controller/Defender), Monk (Striker)
Shadow Classes: Assassin (Striker), Hexblade (Defender), Illusionist (Controller), Necromancer (Leader)
The Barbarian would be a totem based one
The Druid would be a wildshape based one
The Shaman would be a animal and plant spirit based one
The Sorcerer would be a elemental based one (similar to a shugenja)
The Assassin would kill the shadow dancer and take her stuff
The Hexblade would mark others with curses
The Illusionist would be tricky to create
The Necromancer would be easy to create
The Martial Controller could be an inventor/grenadier type who controls the battle field through his inventions he created
The Divine (Striker) could be a holy assassin- there are many deities that concept would make a lot of sense for.
The Divine (Controller) bring thy divine wrath... or possibly a summoner
They already stated they wouldn't try to fill the whole power source / role matrix. So, it's probably even more likely there won't be a psionic leader class.
Actually, I think Leader and Controller are the two roles that make the most sense for psionic classes given the narrowed focus of psychic powers in 4E. I believe it was Races & Classes where it was said that the Psi power source would consist mostly of enchantment effects and mental control.
I like Dalamar's suggestion of a Telepath (Leader) and a Kineticist (Controller) class. The two are probably the most iconic concepts when it comes to Psi powers.
I like Dalamar's suggestion of a Telepath (Leader) and a Kineticist (Controller) class. The two are probably the most iconic concepts when it comes to Psi powers.
I totally agree with those two as well. Psionics also have two other aspects from previous editions:
Body control: Graft weapons, stretch your arms, form a weapon from your hand, absorb energy, become as light as a feather
Precognition: Object reading, telling the future, clairvoyance, clairaudience, jedi-like reflexes, visions, play back a past event
That said there is a lot of ways that those concepts could be implemented.
Shadow: Hexblade. I'd expect the "Marking" technique to be expanded. For instance, the paladin's "Divine Challenge" marks the target, and if the target attacks anyone but the paladin, they take radiant damage. The Hexblade could hex others in a similar fashion.
Psionic: Psychic Warrior. Which I'm curious how it would differ from a psionic version of the Swordmage.
The Hexblade's Curse as a marking ability makes a lot of sense. Hexblade as Defender is really straightforward, especially as it seems like only or primarily Defenders use marks. Hexblade might be Shadow, but it could also be Arcane or it might have been absorbed into the Swordmage or something else. As far as I know, we haven't seen any indication that they'll update the Hexblade at all.
Body control: Graft weapons, stretch your arms, form a weapon from your hand, absorb energy, become as light as a feather
This would be intriguing for a defender. Very "Claw of the Vampire/Bite of the Wolf/Biofeedback" etc. Their powers relate to changing their body to toughening it up, growing larger, etc.
WotC is more likely to split them apart, becuase that means more books.
I wouldn't because the moment the Psychic Warrior came out, I saw a class that was better at being a monk than the monk was. It became even more of that case once the Swordsage came out.
Also I don't like there being a separate power source "Asian" because I think it's stupid. Because if there's an "Asian" power source, then why isn't there an "Arabian" or "African" power source?
As I'd like most of my Asian characters represented by classes that are more culturally neutral, like Fighters and Rogues and Warlocks. Only the monk needs to be it's own class, and it's power source can very much be a part of other power sources out there like martial or psionic or divine.
I wouldn't because the moment the Psychic Warrior came out, I saw a class that was better at being a monk than the monk was. It became even more of that case once the Swordsage came out.
That's really nice, but there are so many things that people want the Monk to be:
Kung fu interior mystic (See: 3e)
Non-mystical, non-magical unarmed attacker.
A divine-related class. A psionic class. A ki class. A martial class.
A striker, a controller. And you're saying a defender.
There's too much that people expect from the monk for it to all go into one thing. A decision must be made. And it's easier to split the Monk up into different areas than to try and do it either one way or cram them all together.
As to the "asian" power source, you have any idea how much complaining has gone on since the Monk was in 3e? How it didn't "Fit" the "Fantasy Genre" that most people wanted? Same thing. The genre or flavor didn't fit. So the monk/ninja/samurai gets put in its own little area because the "I don't like oriental flavor in my fantasy" is too vocal a group to ignore.
You're dealing with different vocal fanbases that expect different things, and thus the biggest groups will get what they want, not individuals that want it all.
I'm not telling you what I want. I'm telling you how it's going to be. I will bet you cash that market research reflects the above, and what I said here is how WotC is going to do it. No matter individual preferences to the contrary.
Last edited by Rechan; 22nd April 2008 at 10:05 PM..
For a generic western fantasy setting the monk class most certainly doesn't fit, but the monk as a "cloistered cleric" does - of course so would an order of 'cloistered religious wizards' or any other class. Monk is a motiff, a style, a collection of fluff. It is not an iconic class outside of "shaolin monk" which is very specifically asian.
So what is the classic "shaolin monk"? Not much more than a striker specializing in unarmed attacks and culturally distinct weapons and a penchant for meditating when not punching things. Honestly, I can represent that with the rogue and a selection of alternative talents and class abilities: a lightly (or non-) armored, high-damage, highly-mobile martial striker.
What's a ninja but a thiefy/assassiny rogue with really good PR? A samurai, minus the visual fluff, cultural references, and ultra-strict code of honor is basically either a fighter or a paladin. A shogun is a warlord perhaps. A wu-jen is a wizard. I don't see a need for new classes for these cultural-specific types, just careful RP and at worst some new talents and alternative class abilities to mimic some specific functions (like being amazing at punching and kicking for instance).
What's a ninja but a thiefy/assassiny rogue with really good PR? A samurai, minus the visual fluff, cultural references, and ultra-strict code of honor is basically either a fighter or a paladin. A shogun is a warlord perhaps. A wu-jen is a wizard. I don't see a need for new classes for these cultural-specific types, just careful RP and at worst some new talents and alternative class abilities to mimic some specific functions (like being amazing at punching and kicking for instance).
These are the reasons why there shouldn't be an "Asian" power source.
What's a ninja but a thiefy/assassiny rogue with really good PR? A samurai, minus the visual fluff, cultural references, and ultra-strict code of honor is basically either a fighter or a paladin. A shogun is a warlord perhaps. A wu-jen is a wizard. I don't see a need for new classes for these cultural-specific types, just careful RP and at worst some new talents and alternative class abilities to mimic some specific functions (like being amazing at punching and kicking for instance).
What's a psion but a wizard with a few different power selections and fluff change? What's a druid but a cleric with a few different power selections and fluff change? What's a paladin but a fighter with a few different power selections and fluff changes?
What's a psion but a wizard with a few different power selections and fluff change? What's a druid but a cleric with a few different power selections and fluff change? What's a paladin but a fighter with a few different power selections and fluff changes?
While you're right, there's a difference of degree.
Maybe rogue is too broad, and needs to be narrowed to include less ninja. But as it stands, there's a lot in there, and if you took it out, the rogue would be anemic.
Maybe fighter is too focussed, and needs less blademaster. But, again, as it stands, those aspects are what make the fighter awesome.
Wizard, however, is defined as "the guy who does magic" -- so it's clear there's room to chop around in there. And, indeed, we've seen that they've done some work to make the roles different, and the outcry at this ("nerfing wizards' charms?! outrage outrage outrage!") points out just how much overlap they have had before.
In many ways, 3e psions really were just wizards in funny hats. Now they're not. And?
And material on the ninja have a lot to do with special, quasi-magical things. The ghost step "Turn invisible" or "turn ethereal" is about right in terms of the mythology associated with them. Yes, there's a lot of rogue there. But there's also the mystical powers. Sure, a "Rogue + Some new abilities like a Quivering Palm" could do it.
So could "Unarmed fighter + Mystical tricks" function for a kung-fu artist.
At the same time, a paladin could be achieved with: Base fighter guy + Lay on hands and this or that.
I don't see WotC taking the "Base + Stuff" approach.
Andy Collins, in the Tome podcast, said that the class design philosophy for 4e is "What does this character Bring to the Table in combat that no one else can do at all". He specifically pointed at the monk and said "Well, he can jump around and climb on stuff. Well the wizard can fly; jumping around isn't so great. So aside from having a nice story, what's the point of playing a monk?"
Therefore, each class introduced has to be able to do something that No One Else can do, at the same time as it fits into the role paradigm of "where you fit in the party". So the Monk, if it's going to exist, must do something that the other classes can't. Same with the Ninja. This is why enchantment was held for psionics, so that they'd have something the wizard can't do. Same with Necromancers, et al.
Dollars to donuts, I'll bet the monk will have stunning ability, and tricks like "Move six squares. You can make a base attack against three opponents in that line, and you do not receive OAs for it", because no one else can do things like that yet.
Last edited by Rechan; 23rd April 2008 at 12:11 AM..
As to the "asian" power source, you have any idea how much complaining has gone on since the Monk was in 3e? How it didn't "Fit" the "Fantasy Genre" that most people wanted? Same thing. The genre or flavor didn't fit. So the monk/ninja/samurai gets put in its own little area because the "I don't like oriental flavor in my fantasy" is too vocal a group to ignore.
Try 1e, that's where the Monk first appeared.
Samurai gets the least amount of things making it different from any other class, and therefore doesn't deserve to have it's own class.
Sohei was basically a Paladin/Monk/Barbarian.
Shaman will probably appear again as a "Primal" power source class rather than an "Asian" power source. The 4e shaman will probably take some things both from the OA Shaman and the Spirit Shaman, that are so similarly named.
Shugenja, had really nothing differentiating it from any other spellcasting class, expect it to get it's stuff taken by the Sorcerer and Divine Controller or the suggested "Elementalist" class.
Wu Jen or (Wu Ren if we're using modern Chinese romanization) was basically a wizard with a bit of elemental/druid thrown into the mix. Expect them to be somewhere in one of the "Primal" classes, getting their stuff taken from them.
Monk, does have enough things to make it an unique class on its own. But it should be grouped with other power sources. In some ways they're more mind over matter, so they could be Psionic, in other ways they're a lot about skill so they could be Martial, they're also related to a religious background so they could be Divine.
Ninja, does have a few unique things, and they're best grouped with the "Shadow" power source, combined with the Assassin and Shadowdancer.
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