Torrent throwdown on the Wizards board

[malraux]

Originally Posted by Xsjado

Regardless of the print quality it is still going to be better than what you would get by printing at home which was the original comparison. Changing the goal posts just turns your point into a straw man.

I dunno. My B/W laser does make a nice print. A color laser with built in duplexing would start to come close.

[Androlphas]

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally Posted by malraux

I dunno. My B/W laser does make a nice print. A color laser with built in duplexing would start to come close.

The problem is that the toner is expensive for color lasers. I've got a Samsung CLP-510 (does duplexing and color) and the toner cartridges are more expensive than the entire printer was (generally 2 - 3 times as much). Plus it seems like every printer made nowadays has a page counter that determines when your cartridge is empty and opposed to just letting you run out of toner....

Ahhhh... technology.

[SteveC]

I just wanted to post here to say that I was wrong. Many months ago, this subject first came up (for 4E, anyway) and I said that the core books would be scanned and available through downloads within 48 hours. It seems that the pirates beat the street dates!

...and that goes to show you that you can't stop piracy. I don't endorse it at all (I believe ENWorld still lets you see PDF purchases, and if you look at mine you'll see I've purchased hundreds of dollars worth), but it's real, and a company needs to figure out a way to deal with it.

Spending time trying to get torrents pulled down is a complete waste of time. A particularly well known site keeps a log of all of the legal threats they get, and if they ignore the RIAA, Microsoft and Apple (not to mention publicly insulting the people who send the letters) WotC is going to do nothing to stop it. Seriously!

So should we just ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen? No way! WotC (and RPG publishers in general) need to come up with a way to market PDFs in such a manner that they're attractive to consumers. That way they can make money off of the legitimate customers, and encourage those who are on the fence to be legal and behave properly. One way to do that is through a company like RPGNow, but is that the be-all-end-all of electronic PDF publishing? In it's current form, certainly not...but it's a start!

Sell me PDFs of the D&D books for a reasonable price and I'll buy 'em. Sell them to me for cover price and I won't, it's just that simple, which is why I don't have any WotC PDFs other than what they released for free RPG day.

Make money off of electronic downloads and don't waste time telling people that illegal downloading is wrong. Why? Because everyone knows it's wrong, and the ones who do it just don't care.

As I'm writing this, it occurs to me that it may come off as a bit confrontational. That's not my intention, and mods can feel free to modify it or even delete it.

--Steve

[doseyclwn]

Dunno 'bout the pdf. I work for a game retailer. We got a call from WOTC today. Evidently buy.com has sent some books out. From what WOTC said in the phone call, somebody is gettin' sued.

[malraux]

Is it worth pointing out that WotC was planning on releasing something similar to the pdfs anyway? Well, pdfs with some sort of authorization and security.

[Argyuile]

First of all, no matter how much RIAA would like for you to believe a download of a copy written work equals a lost sale, it dosn't.

Secondly PDF books make my eyes bleed after a while I don't know how anyone uses them. Also considering how much toner I would use to print all 3 book onto paper and the price of the books on Amazon its probably a wash.

Even for the person talking about his laser printer. You're seriously going to print 750 pages, with lots of full color photos? How much do you laser jet cartridges cost? I can't imagine that your actually doing yourself any favors.

[Voss]

Originally Posted by jc_madden

Is it? Did you pay $30 for one and have your finger prints come off the front cover and then unbeknownst to you smudge most of the book as you parused it? Did you find the paper to be abnormally thin? Did you find that the book didn't stay open and "feel" like a book? Were your saddened by the lack of a descent cover rather than a simple paper one, identical in grade and quality to the rest of the book? Did you feel like this was less of a collectible, something that would last for a long time in your library, or more like a throwaway wad of tissue? I sure did.

Not hyberbolic at all, really.

I agree. The paper quality of KotS was really subpar. People don't even print magazine on paper that poor anymore. One readthrough and the cover was smudged in multiple places (rather bad since the final encounter carries over to the back 'cover' and the paper was curling.

Coupled with all the editing mistakes (and there were a lot, I caught over 20 on the first read-through), from flavor text, rules text and descriptive problems (the burial site is decidedly not southwest of town, for example) and just writing errors (the townsfolk don't go near the keep and won't even speak its name, yet one picks flowers there), even at a significant discount, it looks like a $10 product with a printing error where the price should be. Its definitely a sad lead-in to the new edition.

[gscholt]

Originally Posted by Novem5er

I look forward to playing, and owning the physical books I've purchased, but don't tell me that it's wrong to get information (knowledge) that wasn't paid for. That is a dangerous idea and always has been.

Hear hear.

What my party always did was buy the books we used. Everyone had their PHP, there was a DMG and (a couple of different) MMs. But all the other nice 'expansion' books (Complete *, Races of *), one bought. The others just downloaded a PDF, so you can look through it at home. Basically the same as borrowing a book.

You'll never get a print from a home printer that matches a nicely bound book, and digital copies at the play table? So, imo, it's a bit of a moot point. I want the books to use, so the PDF will not deter me from buying them.

[The Little Raven]

Originally Posted by SteveC

...and that goes to show you that you can't stop piracy.

Can't stop murder, either, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

[Moniker]

Truly, the best way to combat financial losses due to file sharing is to allow users to peruse the ENTIRE book online, just as users can browse books in a book store. There isn't enough evidence beyond hearsay to state that piracy effects book sales negatively. If that were the case, WotC would be recording record losses every year and would not be able to churn out the same number of SPLAT books they publish month after month.

[Mr Jack]

I write computer games for a living. Everything I produce gets pirated. Data from various game releases shows that an early, or pre-release, pirate will reduce first month sales by 5-20%. Now, D&D is likely to suffer less due to the superiority of the print product but I'd still expect them to lose a non-trivial number of sales, and a non-trivial amount of money over this. Yes, there would have been scans up within hours, but the pre-release nature of these leak will be more harmful.

As for taking down torrents, and the like, yeah, you can't beat them but if you do nothing the problem gets worse and you lose more sales.

[Nifft]

I don't think we'll ever have good data on "lost" sales vs. "free advertising / loss leader" generated sales. The issue is just too charged.

Which is odd, since the exact entities who are claiming the biggest losses -- and are doing a lot of the divisive issue-charging -- are supposed to be faceless, emotionless, analytical profit-seekers.

Oh well, -- N

[jc_madden]

Originally Posted by Xsjado

That paragraph reads like a definition of hyperbole.

We must be using conflicting definitions of the word. AFAIK, it means an exaggeration. I'm not exaggerating here. My experiences are not unique; I've seen many of the same complaints. Anecdotal? Yes. Hyperbole? No.

Originally Posted by Xsjado

I'm going to re-iterate that it was a clear case of price gouging so you don't jump down my throat again.

I wasn't aware of jumping down your throat a first time. If I came of as such, I apologize it wasn't my intention. I'm vehement about the subject but I'm not trying to be rude.

Originally Posted by Xsjado

Regardless of the print quality it is still going to be better than what you would get by printing at home which was the original comparison.

Strongly disagree. We're using a self-printed copy of the PrRC at our game now and it looks and feels great.

Originally Posted by Xsjado

Changing the goal posts just turns your point into a straw man.

It's not a straw man, I'm not intentionally steering the argument to a subject I feel I can win. To add additional weight to my argument, I stated that if the print quality of KotS was any indication of the level of quality we can expect from future products, digital media may be a better solution. I would pay more money for a better quality book. If the quality of the books are lacking, I would print it myself if I could buy a PDF from WotC.

Originally Posted by Xsjado

As we've seen from the leaked copies, they are full colour and that requires a higher quality print process and paper than we saw in the preview module.

Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "full color,” I have KotS, it appears to be full color. The ink smudges horribly and the paper is too thin.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Mourn

Can't stop murder, either, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

...and your point is entirely irrelevant here.

First of all, as someone who has lost a good friend to murder, even if it was many years ago, the comparison of software piracy to murder is simply outrageous.

Second, you're wrong: to a large degree, a society that wants to stop murders from occurring can do so. That discussion is for another board entirely, however, as it comes down to politics.

Third, I stand by my statement: if WotC put everyone in the company on stopping the piracy of game products, they would not be able to curtail the process one bit. They would effectively do so, however, because they wouldn't be producing any new products for the pirates to torrent. That would be great, up until they went entirely out of business from lack of sales.

So I'll just say it clearly (and, remember, this is just my opinion, mkay?) every dollar a company like WotC spends trying to root out and stop piracy is one dollar they don't spend creating and marketing their products, and that's a waste.

Nothing that WotC does on this matter will make any difference, and it will only be a waste of their time.

What wouldn't be a waste of time would be for them to come up with a marketing and distribution strategy for the products so that we can legally get them electronically at a reasonable price. I'd buy them (and I'm not alone) and they would be making money off of it. That's the promise of the DDI, so I hope that will actually work out and we can all be happy. It seems to work pretty well for Apple and ITunes, after all.

I don't mean to be a jerk, and I don't support piracy (I've had the books on preorder since February!) but nothing we do here is going to affect the situation in the slightest.

--Steve

[warlockwannabe]

This post seems most to the point to me. From the wizards board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GameJunkieJim
Right, but that doesn't include people like me who live probably 85 miles from the nearest urban center, and does their shopping online, or on a rare occasion makes a 2 hour trek to the nearest game store.

Yes, I DLed them. I DL anything like this before I buy it. Sometimes I buy, sometimes I don't. Rarely do the PDFs stick on the computer. Most of the PDFs I do have are either freely availiable (some from WotC own site, as well as a ton of old TSR Marvel stuff) or stuff I have in storage that I like to look at occasionally but don't want to dig out each time (AD&D 1E Players Handbook, some old Rolemaster supplements from the 80's, Gamma World, etc.)

If I don't own it, or if it's not a 'free' product, I delete it after I've perused it. I'm not saying it's OK to use something if you haven't paid for it, but in this day and age, it should be our right to make sure it's worth what we spend. Caveat emptor right??

which was responded to by.
As I said were not going to agree. I do feel for your perdicament. I grew up in a town like this. But I dont think that it necessarily entitles you to anything special. I can understand why you do it, but I dont feel it justifies it is a better way to put it. I have pdfs. A lot. But I buy them. Old editions of BECMI D&D, Stuff from Monte Cook. And a heck of a lot of freebies. But I simply dont feel that someone is entitled to something that isnt thiers. If WOTC allowed it it is one thing. But the fact that you rationalize it in this way only shows that you HAVE to rationalize it. If someone buys something, they never have to rationalize it. Cept maybe to the wife who didnt want you to spend the money.... but thats a different issue. If your doing what you know is right, you really never need to rationalize your actions.

Again, maybe I'm just jaded. And As I said, we may not agree. But I'd still play a game with ya.

[frankthedm]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I just wanted to post here to say that I was wrong. Many months ago, this subject first came up (for 4E, anyway) and I said that the core books would be scanned and available through downloads within 48 hours. It seems that the pirates beat the street dates!

Arrr, matey, don't be so quick to blame the pirates for scanning them. Some say they look more like an insider uploaded them.

[warlockwannabe]

Originally Posted by frankthedm

Arrr, matey, don't be so quick to blame the pirates for scanning them. Some of them looked more like an insider uploaded them.

Dosent that make him a pirate too?

[frankthedm]

Originally Posted by warlockwannabe

Dosent that make him a pirate too?

Mayhap, but it means beating street date was far less an accomplishment. It is like saying someone robbed a bank after the vaults contents were thrown on the sidewalk.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by frankthedm

Arrr, matey, don't be so quick to blame the pirates for scanning them. Some say they look more like an insider uploaded them.

Oh, to be sure. But doesn't that make it even worse in some ways? Controlling the people you employ or contract for service is one thing, but stopping someone who's willing to ruin the book by cutting it up and scanning it?

No matter what, though, this is going to be a huge launch, and this whole thing has probably given WotC a fair bit of extra publicity, so we'll never know how it really affected things.

--Steve