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If I knew enough about excel i would make a spreadsheet with all the powers in the PHB so you could search, for example, which powers are vs. will or whatnot.
Last edited by phil500; 5th June 2008 at 04:16 AM..
Yeah, just what a roleplaying game needs to encourage: number crunching. It's my opinion that number crunching like this only undermines what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and I blame it on crpg's, mmo's, and the internet.
Sorry, but, I disagree 100%.
This is what ALL games need. If you want a game where no one did any number crunching in order to have game balance, then play Paladium. OTOH, if you want a game where all levels are viable options, then you HAVE to crunch the numbers.
I will guarantee that someone at WOTC has already done this. They may not make the numbers available, but, they have done it. The fact that they include a "make a monster" section shows that they have already crunched the numbers.
Look at it another way. Do baseball statistics add or take away from the enjoyment of the game of baseball? Or, are they somewhat set apart from the game and simply add another method of design when building a team?
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This is what ALL games need. If you want a game where no one did any number crunching in order to have game balance, then play Paladium. OTOH, if you want a game where all levels are viable options, then you HAVE to crunch the numbers.
The game designer does. We don't.
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Look at it another way. Do baseball statistics add or take away from the enjoyment of the game of baseball? Or, are they somewhat set apart from the game and simply add another method of design when building a team?
Yes, it does. I'd rather watch little league games than the majors, where stats and inflated salaries rule the game.
Propaganda by power gamers. Nothing more and not relevant at all.
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Originally Posted by keterys
I've got an index of 263 monsters at the moment and you're saying this data might not be useful to me!?
The only value this has is for power gaming number crunchers who have no interest in play cooperatively, rather than competitively. Thus ruining the game for others that just want to have fun as is and not agonize over every single number.
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I'm not a game designer, but I'd rather what I did make was of good quality, thanks.
The DMG already has guidelines and plenty of tables to insure what you create using the system is balanced.
The only value this has is for power gaming number crunchers who have no interest in play cooperatively, rather than competitively. Thus ruining the game for others that just want to have fun as is and not agonize over every single number.
I'm a DM... who makes monsters for other DMs... and wants them to be balanced and wants to compare against the published monsters. And I find this information useful. Full stop.
The more you post, the more I seriously question your sanity. It's a real shame, because I liked some of your posts, but power game propaganda? Seriously? Nice.
Anyhow, back on topic for a bit... a lot of this data is skew due to things like devils and undead being in the MM, so over 5 MMs it's a lot less clear...
But it is interesting how little vulnerability or resistance to certain other energies there are. Also, my gut instinct for balancing powers (for creating new ones) was that being radiant at all was worth something, because of undead, and this does suggest that's correct.
Untyped damage certainly seems more valuable than fire damage at the moment, that's for sure. I'm still confused about the lack of 'DR' for weapons on creatures - just stuff like the grick and tarrasque.
I'm a DM... who makes monsters for other DMs... and wants them to be balanced and wants to compare against the published monsters. And I find this information useful.
The DMG already has everything you need to make balanced monsters.
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The more you post, the more I seriously question your sanity. It's a real shame, because I liked some of your posts, but power game propaganda? Seriously? Nice.
One of the WizO's agrees with me. They agreed the stormwind crap was basically propaganda propagated by power gamers in an attempt to legitimize their game breaking character choices. Optimizing is just another attempt by power gamers to try and hide from the negative stigma attached to power gaming and being a munchkin.
First they were munchkins, so they tried to hide behind the word power gamer. Now they're trying to hide behind optomizer and it's just ridiculous. RPG's are role playing games, not roll playing adventure games. The numbers are merely there to aid with conflict resolution and to provide a semblance of balance between characters. Or at least a common starting ground.
What I find interesting is the consistent difference between AC and Reflex, which coincides with the +2/+3 bonus you get through proficiency. I think the number crunch shows the underlying maths.
Which is good, if you know the maths, you learn how to wing it better and can design for it better!
The only value this has is for power gaming number crunchers who have no interest in play cooperatively, rather than competitively. Thus ruining the game for others that just want to have fun as is and not agonize over every single number.
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The only value this has is for power gaming number crunchers who have no interest in play cooperatively, rather than competitively. Thus ruining the game for others that just want to have fun as is and not agonize over every single number.
The DMG already has guidelines and plenty of tables to insure what you create using the system is balanced.
I'm with keterys, as a DM who's going to be making a lot of monsters stuff like this is great. It's an excellent addition to the tables from the DMG.
Yeah, because I'm talking about 4th edition as a whole, rather than just the game (aka the campaign) the power gamer is in and ruining.
Actually, that kind of things is helpful to your cause.
If people number crunch and understand the system better, they can produce a game where powergamers have less points of attack. Furthermore, a well-made maths base, helps people who are not into powergaming, as they can play an enjoyable game without having to put up with accidental powergamers (like, when somebody picks up something broken and is suddenly a powergamer, just because he liked the fluff of the overpowered option).
Yeah, just what a roleplaying game needs to encourage: number crunching. It's my opinion that number crunching like this only undermines what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and I blame it on crpg's, mmo's, and the internet.
Ironically, CRPGS, MMOs, and IRC (or PBP) RPGs typically require that players perform far less math than they do when they sit down to play a paper and pencil RPG.
One of the WizO's agrees with me. They agreed the stormwind crap was basically propaganda propagated by power gamers in an attempt to legitimize their game breaking character choices. Optimizing is just another attempt by power gamers to try and hide from the negative stigma attached to power gaming and being a munchkin.
First they were munchkins, so they tried to hide behind the word power gamer. Now they're trying to hide behind optomizer and it's just ridiculous. RPG's are role playing games, not roll playing adventure games. The numbers are merely there to aid with conflict resolution and to provide a semblance of balance between characters. Or at least a common starting ground.
You are wrong to group destructive players who seek to break the game with players who want their characters to be effective at their roleplaying choices.
One of my last 3.5 characters was a high-level remake of my favorite 2nd edition character. The character wasn't just my favorite, it's also a DM and group favorite because of roleplaying and good times from campaigns past. When I made the 3.5 version I tried to stay as true to the tactics and personality of the original, then min/maxed so I would be effective within my concept. It is a game with random factors after all, and I know my DM is going to be challenging me. It makes sense to me that if I'm going to devote myself to a character I should do my best to rise to those challenges.
The Stormwind Fallacy is totally, 100% correct. It's only "propaganda" when game-breaking, non-roleplaying munchkins link it and think they win at D&D. That type of misuse is like saying gravity exists so it's a good idea to jump off a cliff. It's not a good idea, but that doesn't prove Newton wrong.
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