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One of the WizO's agrees with me. They agreed the stormwind crap was basically propaganda propagated by power gamers in an attempt to legitimize their game breaking character choices. Optimizing is just another attempt by power gamers to try and hide from the negative stigma attached to power gaming and being a munchkin.
Not only is this an appeal to authority phallacy, it's a terrible one. "OOOOH! A WizO agrees with you!" doesn't really bear much weight when it comes to an argument.
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Originally Posted by Aria Silverhands
First they were munchkins, so they tried to hide behind the word power gamer. Now they're trying to hide behind optomizer and it's just ridiculous. RPG's are role playing games, not roll playing adventure games.
I'm glad that you know the One True Way to Play D&D. Thumbs up.
It's my opinion that number crunching like this only undermines what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and I blame it on crpg's, mmo's, and the internet.
Only if you want to remain ignorant about the hows and whys of encounter building, or about possible pitfalls in the game system. Arming yourself with a working knowledge of the math behind the game has all kinds of advantages that have nothing to do with suppossed power gaming.
The more you learn about the inner workings of your game, the better prepared you are when someone tries to pull some rules-lawyering BS or thinks he's come up with the next 'bag-o-rats' exploits - people who don't learn this lesson tend to get bulldozed the first time they have to deal with someone even moderately exploitive.
I love power-gaming. Power-gaming is great. A role-playing game that doesn't allow me to power-game is not to my taste.
There is, off course, a limit. I don't like power-gaming if there is only one good power-gaming build is. That gets boring.
I want to take a concept like "Swashbuckler, great at seducing women", or a concept like "Wizard specializing in illusions and enchantments to avoid having to kill people." and have rules that i can use to achieve this concept with the best effect, and be as combat effective as if I had just played a Weapon Specialist Fighter focusing on the biggest and baddest weapon out there.
Now, after a short excursion to the realms of my wet power-gaming fantasies, head back to the real topic:
Awesome list. I think it shows that there is a consistent math behind all the rules.
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Aria, given how universally negative the reaction has been to some of your posts, I'd suggest reevaluating your posting style if you want your message to be heard.
Yeah, just what a roleplaying game needs to encourage: number crunching. It's my opinion that number crunching like this only undermines what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and I blame it on crpg's, mmo's, and the internet.
...?
How does a statistical analysis of traits in the MM undermine roleplaying? Can you please give a bullet point list how it does that?
Also: CRPGs and MMOs are perfectly playable without crunching any numbers what so ever. The computer does that for you. TT RPGs are more math intensive. Also, the internet? What does that have to do with how good you roleplay an elf?
Seriously, this may be a strong emotional issue for you, but try to make some logical arguments of those emotions.
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Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
How does a statistical analysis of traits in the MM undermine roleplaying? Can you please give a bullet point list how it does that?
Such information, when presented to players, undermines their confidence in their characters capabilities, making them rethink their choices that were based on enjoyment, feel, and perception, rather than calculated statistics. They stop evaluating new abilities, feats, etc by the numbers, rather than simple appeal.
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Also: CRPGs and MMOs are perfectly playable without crunching any numbers what so ever. The computer does that for you. TT RPGs are more math intensive. Also, the internet? What does that have to do with how good you roleplay an elf?
I'll start with the internet first. Before widespread use of the internet, I never knew of anyone who would create detailed statistical analysis' of all the stats in the monster manual. No one in my experience has done so. People just played the game for what it was and accepted what it wasn't. With the ease of communication over the internet, we've gone from simply playing the game to dissecting the game. Any game really. Just look at all the sites devoted to analyzing every single statistic and formula for crpg's and mmo's. Especially mmo's.
That statistic driven competitive mindset has infected gamers everywhere. Yeah, it's all personal experience and anecdotal evidence, but when D&D games turn into discussions of numbers and stats... I get disgusted. D&D is about roleplaying, not number crunching. People have lost sight of what the game should be.
Instead of creating games where the numbers are less important, computer games have turned the focus towards the numbers, in an ever increasing drive to be the best. I alway read things where people say they want a challenge, but then they go through and try to find the easiest way to beat something.
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Seriously, this may be a strong emotional issue for you, but try to make some logical arguments of those emotions.
Playing games is about emotions. Numbers are inherently without emotion. Same with statistics. The only reason to worry about numbers, is for personal and selfish enjoyment through being "better" at the game. There's no thought given to how your character might affect the group as a whole. I've seen one group dissolve because players stopped showing up. Their reason was that the game just wasn't fun anymore with a certain player in the group and the dm was too timid to kick them out. That player was a min/maxxing power gamer to the core. That's one group too many, imo.
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Originally Posted by WayneLigon
Only if you want to remain ignorant about the hows and whys of encounter building, or about possible pitfalls in the game system. Arming yourself with a working knowledge of the math behind the game has all kinds of advantages that have nothing to do with suppossed power gaming.
The more you learn about the inner workings of your game, the better prepared you are when someone tries to pull some rules-lawyering BS or thinks he's come up with the next 'bag-o-rats' exploits - people who don't learn this lesson tend to get bulldozed the first time they have to deal with someone even moderately exploitive.
I only need one thing to deal with any exploits: common sense. The math is irrelevant.
This is a cool thread. Don't derail it with personal arguments, folks.
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I'll start with the internet first. Before widespread use of the internet, I never knew of anyone who would create detailed statistical analysis' of all the stats in the monster manual. No one in my experience has done so. People just played the game for what it was and accepted what it wasn't. With the ease of communication over the internet, we've gone from simply playing the game to dissecting the game.
People have been dissecting RPGs and other games mathematically long before there was an internet. If you never knew anyone who did so before the internet, you simply didn't know the right people. The internet hasn't changed the way people play RPGs, it's simply exposed you to a wider spectrum of gamers.
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Originally Posted by Aria Silverhands
That statistic driven competitive mindset has infected gamers everywhere. Yeah, it's all personal experience and anecdotal evidence, but when D&D games turn into discussions of numbers and stats... I get disgusted. D&D is about roleplaying, not number crunching. People have lost sight of what the game should be.
Who are you to tell other people "what the game should be"? Powergaming isn't badwrongfun, any more than any other style of gaming. If you don't like powergaming, don't play with people who do, but don't tell people what they can and can't do at their own gaming table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Silverhands
Instead of creating games where the numbers are less important, computer games have turned the focus towards the numbers, in an ever increasing drive to be the best. I alway read things where people say they want a challenge, but then they go through and try to find the easiest way to beat something.
To some people that is the challenge. It may not be your cup of tea but that's no reason to accuse them of having badwrongfun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Silverhands
Playing games is about emotions. Numbers are inherently without emotion. Same with statistics. The only reason to worry about numbers, is for personal and selfish enjoyment through being "better" at the game. There's no thought given to how your character might affect the group as a whole. I've seen one group dissolve because players stopped showing up. Their reason was that the game just wasn't fun anymore with a certain player in the group and the dm was too timid to kick them out. That player was a min/maxxing power gamer to the core. That's one group too many, imo.
It seems to me that the problem there lay with the player who's playing style was incompatible with the group and the DM who wasn't willing to step up and deal with the situation. Why are you blaming powergaming for what was fundamentally an interpersonal conflict within your gaming group?
I agree with this assessment… to a point. That point being: “so what?” I would argue that what you are witnessing is merely an evolution in gaming and its audience. Yes we as gamers evolve too and so do our expectations! If WotC gave us anything less than a mechanically sound system and its transparency, there would be a very vocal outcry. Yes, I too have fond memories of simpler fun RPGs from days gone by, but I also fudged die rolls a lot back then too.
The internet has gotten gaming communities to collaborate on the numbers, but don’t discount the other creative collaborations. I would have killed to have the things like home-grown Iron Heroes rules in High School (and Iron Heroes for that matter, but I digress). You don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater afterall. Personally I feel the internet has been nothing but good for gaming, otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion in the first place.
I'd rather read a novel than read a book of statistics.
Reading and Creating are two different things, though.
Creating a statistic, or anything mathematical, can be a very emotional thing.
There is the thrill of doing something new, the frustration of initial failures to create the right formulas, and eventually the satisfaction and joy of having all fall together to a single, cohesive system that makes sense and works. It is the joy of problem-solving, and ultimately probably the reason why people spend their free time and doing this kind of work.
For some, a good mathematical formula, or a statistic, can be interesting because they give you knowledge you had, and as such, they satisfy your sense of curiosity. That's why this kind of threads are actually read by others.
Number-Crunching isn't for everyone, but those that do it on their own will enjoy it - for them, it is an emotional matter.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
That statistic driven competitive mindset has infected gamers everywhere. Yeah, it's all personal experience and anecdotal evidence, but when D&D games turn into discussions of numbers and stats... I get disgusted. D&D is about roleplaying, not number crunching. People have lost sight of what the game should be.
Ok, let me just be real clear about this:
Your feelings on the matter are fine and valid. What is not fine is going into a thread where people are enjoying the discussion of statistics and whatnot and telling them that their feelings on the matter are not fine and are invalid. We call that "threadcrapping" and you've done more than enough of it in this thread. If you have nothing to contribute to the topic and it "disgusts" you then my advice is to find other threads you find less disgusting.
I think this is really fascinating because it helps us understand why the game designers made the choices they made, and I think it fits with the philosophy of 4E about revealing the inner workings and the math of the game. It makes it easier for us to be co-designers and house-rulers by giving us more information about what the likely consequences of making a change are.
Say you are a DM and your player wants to have a unique power that fits his characters theme, or say you want to make an artifact or magical item that's going to be central to your story. You'll be more easily able to craft something that serves the roleplaying side of your game without screwing up the crunch portion of your game by being over- or under-powered when you know the math.
A little math saves a lot of trial-and-error and a lot of frustration.
RPG's are role playing games, not roll playing adventure games.
Ah, thank god! For a couple of pages there, I was afraid you were going to just half-ass this thread crap. Thank you for pulling out the big guns and really douching it up!
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Playing games is about emotions. Numbers are inherently without emotion. Same with statistics. The only reason to worry about numbers, is for personal and selfish enjoyment through being "better" at the game.
20 is a number, happiness is an emotion, and I get happy when I roll a crit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Silverhands
There's no thought given to how your character might affect the group as a whole. I've seen one group dissolve because players stopped showing up. Their reason was that the game just wasn't fun anymore with a certain player in the group and the dm was too timid to kick them out. That player was a min/maxxing power gamer to the core. That's one group too many, imo.
You've created a stereotype based on one experience. I agree with you that there are power gamers who detract from the experience of the game, just like there are rules lawyers who slow play down to a standstill, and drama queen roleplayers who hog all the spotlight with their boring soliloquies. Those are extremes, and the vast majority of players fall somewhere between the extremes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Silverhands
I only need one thing to deal with any exploits: common sense. The math is irrelevant.
Well seeing as common sense is based on logic, and math IS logic, I wouldn't discount your reliance on mathematics.
Half-joking, half-serious suggestions for further statistical research:
* Is there any correlation between defenses and movement speed or modes? For example, hypothesize that fast flying creatures have higher Ref, lower AC/Fort.
* Do certain monster types -- uh, wait, we don't have those anymore -- "backgrounds"? (stuff like natural, abberant, etc.) Anyway. How do those things match up with the various other stats?
* Second the call for average attacks and damage.
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