D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
Ah, thank god! For a couple of pages there, I was afraid you were going to just half-ass this thread crap. Thank you for pulling out the big guns and really douching it up!
Tewligan, you know that's not acceptable here. But then I'm sure you expected the ban when you posted it. See you in three days.
Just in case the topic isn't quite dead: any statistics on Defenses vs. Attacks by role?
Like, if you see Brutes, go for the Will attacks; if you see a Controller, then hit Fortitude?
Yeah, that's already in there, under Defenses -- the third and fourth tables. If you see Brutes, go for Reflex or Will; if you see a Controller, go for Reflex.
Yeah, that's already in there, under Defenses -- the third and fourth tables. If you see Brutes, go for Reflex or Will; if you see a Controller, go for Reflex.
D'oh, thanks!
Cheers, -- N
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Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
That's a great resource. Is there a chance you are willing to make the xls (or whatever format you are using) available ? I was going to compile some data myself but the prospect of saving hours of work is appealing.
I will agree to any non-concurrence / must-mention-original-author 'licensing' terms you impose.
Last edited by Omen of Peace; 17th June 2008 at 09:20 AM..
Such information, when presented to players, undermines their confidence in their characters capabilities, making them rethink their choices that were based on enjoyment, feel, and perception, rather than calculated statistics. They stop evaluating new abilities, feats, etc by the numbers, rather than simple appeal.
And where is the fun when the neat-sounding ability (say, Tieflings burninating things with fire) runs up against the reality in the game where so many things will be resistant or immune? My neat sounding ability, my hoped for contribution to the group, my tool in my quest, is useless against so many of the hurdles that I face?
When Aeriel Verloren (my current wizard in a 3.5 game I'm playing in) is investigating a challenge, she consults books, sages, and bards. She learns about what she might face, and plans her spell choices accordingly. She's gone on an adventure to find a masterwork knowledge of Arcana book. When she sees a monster, she checks her memory as to what kind of attack this creature is most vulnerable to - and casts a spell against that vulnerability.
In 3.5, the knowledge check allows her skill, her intelligence, into the game.
To do otherwise would be playing an intelligence 18 character stupidly.
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I'll start with the internet first. Before widespread use of the internet, I never knew of anyone who would create detailed statistical analysis' of all the stats in the monster manual. No one in my experience has done so. People just played the game for what it was and accepted what it wasn't. With the ease of communication over the internet, we've gone from simply playing the game to dissecting the game. Any game really. Just look at all the sites devoted to analyzing every single statistic and formula for crpg's and mmo's. Especially mmo's.
The internet (and computers in general) has made compilation and distribution of these statistics easier. But they happened anyway. They were distributed instead in fanzines and such. There were many different role-playing magazines besides the Dragon (still are) with fan created content. There were BBS bulletin boards before the internet made such connections world wide and universal.
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That statistic driven competitive mindset has infected gamers everywhere. Yeah, it's all personal experience and anecdotal evidence, but when D&D games turn into discussions of numbers and stats... I get disgusted. D&D is about roleplaying, not number crunching. People have lost sight of what the game should be.
The Dungeons and Dragons experience is different at nearly every group that sits down and plays.
You and your group are entirely free to ignore this thread. You are free to not sit down and game with me and others on this thread.
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Instead of creating games where the numbers are less important, computer games have turned the focus towards the numbers, in an ever increasing drive to be the best. I alway read things where people say they want a challenge, but then they go through and try to find the easiest way to beat something.
Some work hard at finding the easiest way.
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Playing games is about emotions. Numbers are inherently without emotion. Same with statistics. The only reason to worry about numbers, is for personal and selfish enjoyment through being "better" at the game. There's no thought given to how your character might affect the group as a whole. I've seen one group dissolve because players stopped showing up. Their reason was that the game just wasn't fun anymore with a certain player in the group and the dm was too timid to kick them out. That player was a min/maxxing power gamer to the core. That's one group too many, imo.
Then that player didn't belong in that group.
You can play the game as you like. I'm not telling you different.
You, however, are intruding in on how others play the game.
What we could really use now is a table of PC attacks by defense targetted and level. Anyone seen one yet?
I've been checking out the warlock. I read about the Raven Queen and something just CLICKED. Never having wanted to play a paladin before, and now I've got a warlock multi-classed to paladin, Enforcer of Fate, servant of the Raven Queen.
Anyway.
I've got an excel sheet of warlock heroic powers, by pact, level, use (at will/daily/encounter), key ability, damage type and defense. I needed to know if this cool concept actually WORKED.
It does, but I need both charisma and constitution.
Could've sworn Aria was a song's name if anything. Or a Castlevania's name. But eh, whatever.
Anyone else disappointed by the prevalence of extraordinary senses? It's an improvement, but not as much of one as I'd have hoped. Houseruled easily enough though.
Anyone else disappointed by the prevalence of extraordinary senses? It's an improvement, but not as much of one as I'd have hoped. Houseruled easily enough though.
That's funny, my reaction was quite the opposite...
Only a little more than 10% have blindsight, tremorsense, or truesight. Even in the epic tier it's not much more than 15%. And 4.0 truesight doesn't imply darkvision, can't see into the ethereal plane, and can't see through polymorph effects, and is usually a far shorter range (3.5 was 120 feet or 24 squares, whereas in 4.0 a bit of skimming suggests that 6 squares is most common.) That's not bad; in the vast majority of cases invisibility (or blur) will work as advertised. Sure, low-light vision and darkvision are still very common... but I don't see that as quite as large a problem.
I actually miss a special sense... scent; which was fun ;-).
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4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
As to Aria; now people that grok math can crunch the numbers for me, and I can focus more on my story and campaign. Their number crunching helps me understand the underlying math of the system, its logic, its common sense as it were. That way when I need to make that "common sense" rule on the fly I grok the game well enough to make good rulings. If math isn't your thing, that's ok, plenty of us like math though.
To those who are interested, how does this analysis stack up with the table on page 184?
I'm sad to see that (EDIT: some) people don't understand the place of numbers in game design. I'm a game designer by trade, and almost all of my work revolves around numbers. Sure, there's plenty of creative writing to it, and that's one of the most fun and engaging parts - but it's not the most important by any stretch. A game that has a poor underlying math framework will, no matter how engaging its story, only be remembered for how bad a game it was. At best, it will be remembered as a great story that played horribly. Similarly, a game with no underlying math is no game at all. It might be an interactive story, but it's not a game.
I'm particularly intrigued by the distribution of resistance, immunity and vulnerability. I'm hoping future monster manuals will restore some balance in this area, to make fire-breathing or poison-spitting reasonable choices for dragonborn. Meanwhile, I may assign some lightning, acid or cold resistances to monsters that didn't have them before. (The only Dragonborn at my table is also the only child player, and of course he chose fire; it's the most impressive looking. I'll need to choose just enough resistant and vulnerable foes for it to matter).
It also confirms my gut reaction that changing evil clerics and paladins from radiant to necrotic damage would be a bad idea.
I've seen one group dissolve because players stopped showing up. Their reason was that the game just wasn't fun anymore with a certain player in the group and the dm was too timid to kick them out. That player was a min/maxxing power gamer to the core. That's one group too many, imo.
Ahhh, now we are getting somewhere.
Tell me about your relationship with your parents...
__________________ It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it -Upton Sinclair
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand. -Albert Einstein
Alignment is what you are when no one is watching. -Yakoska, fellow D&D player.
RPG's are role playing games, not roll playing adventure games.
Oh, I have to jump all over this.
RPGs are first and foremost games. They are meant to have fun with.
The important thing about RPGs is NOT the R and never has been. Who taught you that? It's the PG. Playing Games.
Sure, DND is an RPG game where people roleplay their characters. But, the degree to which they roleplay and how they do that is totally totally totally irrelevant as long as the players are having fun.
The degree to to which players follow the rules is also totally totally totally irrelevant.
Strictly following the rules in a mega-dungeon with no verbal interaction with the NPCs at all is ok in an RPG as long as the players are having fun.
LARP DND with heavy roleplaying and following virtually no rules at all is ok in an RPG as long as the players are having fun.
The degree to to which players min max their PCs is also totally totally totally irrelevant in an RPG as long as the players are having fun.
When it comes to RPGs, it's all good.
Roleplaying vs. Power Gamer arguments, however, are total white noise nonsense.
If people are having fun, the RPG is doing it's job.
If the people are merely roleplaying for the sake of roleplaying, the RPG is probably not doing it's job.
But, fun is the primary goal for most people (many hard core roleplayers included) when playing an RPG. Roleplaying is not the primary goal for most people when playing an RPG. Roleplaying is often a means to an end, it is typically not the end itself. And, there are many many other means to an end in RPGs, including min maxing PCs for some people.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Back on topic. OP, is there anyway to see what type of damage these monsters are doing? Ex. 30% of mobs do fire damage or something like that. That way PC can make sure they go after those kinds of resistances. It would at least be interesting to see. Let me know if it is viable.
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