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I wouldn't jump into conclusions yet as to Constitution being a primary stat for the Swordmage as many people on this thread seems to be implying.
Take a look at the Paladin... no, actually, take a look at the Warlord, Ranger, Cleric, Warlock and the Paladin. They all have at least 2 primary stats that when you select a build makes use of one of them and the other turns out to be rather redundant.
Just because the pre-gen character has 12 in Strength it doesn't mean that Constitution is a primary stat. In fact, Rich Baker said on that WotC thread (Source) that Swordmages likes Str and Int alike.
I wouldn't jump into conclusions yet as to Constitution being a primary stat for the Swordmage as many people on this thread seems to be implying.
Take a look at the Paladin... no, actually, take a look at the Warlord, Ranger, Cleric, Warlock and the Paladin. They all have at least 2 primary stats that when you select a build makes use of one of them and the other turns out to be rather redundant.
Just because the pre-gen character has 12 in Strength it doesn't mean that Constitution is a primary stat. In fact, Rich Baker said on that WotC thread (Source) that Swordmages likes Str and Int alike.
I would argee with your statement. I'm betting that the Swordmage will suffer from MAD much as the Paladin and Warlock can. While many of its powers might use Int vs. defense, I would think that Str will still be important since it is a melee class. And I'm pretty sure that what we're seeing in the Dwarf pregen is one particular build of the class; based primarily on Con as its secondary attribute--I'm sure there will be at least one more build based on another attribute; perhaps Wis? The dwarf seems to have some points there as well.
The Dwarf probably has points in Wis to prevent a 10+half level only Will Defense. I think the class has Str and Int and primaries(picking one or the other is the difference between builds), and Con as the secondary. I get the feeling that Con goes into their Aegis-marking power's damage reduction(5+Con), and probably boosts some powers the way secondary stats do for other classes.
I'd really hope the shielding bonus is a +2, and this sordmage took a feat to increase that to +3 as well as get something else small and cool...
And here's hoping for Con and Int, with some kicker effects from Cha and a definite use for Str (actually, just being in melee you always want either Str or the ability to use another score on a basic attack for opportunity attacks).
I'd disagree that the damage negation is overpowered, though. The fighter can stop an opponent from even getting to the squishy, and paladins can heal the damage dealt in a pinch. This amount of negation looks fine to me at a glance. It most likely dosn't increase much, +3 at Paragon, +3 at epic + stat buffs.
__________________ "I took a risk... and I ended up in the bag of holding" -the player of Ian Whitefire (deceased)
Hey! I can't comment on the mechanics, but I played the dwarft swordmage at Origins. It was a heck of a lot of fun. While he didn't lay the smack down as well as the others, he had an awesome AC and HP. Was able to get up in the monster's faces. The shielding was nice, but didn't feel overpowered.
I went to Origins yesterday and took part in the RPGA's 45 minute dungeon delve for 4E, which basically is just three combat encounters used to teach people the game.
One of the choices we had was the Swordmage (level 1). Unfortunately, I did not get to play the Swordmage, but I did play the fighter in the party. We had 5 characters (out of 6): Human Great Sword Fighter, Dwarven Swordmage, Halfing Fey Warlock, Something Staff Wizard (either Human or Half-Elf, I'm not sure which), and Dwarven Cleric (sixth choice was a Elf Brutal Rogue).
Anyways, the two defenders absolutely rock together. We worked out marks, with the Swordmage taking the heavy hitters, while I marked everything else.
We only got through the easy encounter and had downed about half of the medium encounter, but I'd welcome the Swordmage at my table. They were fantastic defenders. Their daily power is sick.
I went to Origins yesterday and took part in the RPGA's 45 minute dungeon delve for 4E, which basically is just three combat encounters used to teach people the game.
...
We only got through the easy encounter and had downed about half of the medium encounter, but I'd welcome the Swordmage at my table. They were fantastic defenders. Their daily power is sick.
Ok, so did anyone from Origins feel, or hear anyone else feel otherwise? Broken on paper and broken in play are two diffrent things. Monk in 3e looked horrorable broken on paper... in play not so much. So lets hear dome more from players about how they went before jumping on the Broken powercreep band wagon...
What is a "gish" anyway? I thought it was a fighting class that used magic to fight better.
As I understand it, a gish is essentially a combination of Fighter and Wizard; someone who can switch between casting spells and fighting according to the situation. (So roughly someone who does the things that Subedi is complaining the Swordmage doesn't do.)
Githyanki Gish Level 15 Elite Skirmisher
Githyanki Gish Tactics
A githyanki gish uses ranged attacks ( force bolt and storm of
stars) to soften up foes before engaging in melee combat, using
astral stride to gain a flanking position when possible and
making a double attack at every opportunity
from DMG pg55
Quote:
Use skirmishers as the mobile strikers in an
encounter, the creatures that move to attack vulnerable
PCs from the sides and rear. They often have
powers that let them dart in, attack, and retreat in
one action.
So the idea of an arcane swordsman playing the defender role? Its not even close to a gish. Also the "free hand" issue?This guy is isvesting in Con and Int both defensive abilities. Im not amazed by the swordmage im actually disapointed.
So the idea of an arcane swordsman playing the defender role? Its not even close to a gish. Also the "free hand" issue?This guy is isvesting in Con and Int both defensive abilities. Im not amazed by the swordmage im actually disapointed.
Some one earlier posted a link were it was said that this is NOT a gish. but an Arcane Defender...I belive (with no more info then already in this thread) that it is a good start to a gish...a temp stop gap intill we get a striker version of the class (called blade singer in my perfect world).
I belive that a half elf Sword mage with all the multi feats for wizard and dilatant for for eaither eldritch blast or any of the rogue at wills is going to be the default gish build
with Swordmage/any striker being a close runner up
from DMG pg55
So the idea of an arcane swordsman playing the defender role? Its not even close to a gish. Also the "free hand" issue?This guy is isvesting in Con and Int both defensive abilities. Im not amazed by the swordmage im actually disapointed.
To be fair, I'd say a gish is not what the MM or DMG says it is.
In my experience, a Gish is someone who has attack spells and can still fight. Fireball, and its derivatives, magic missile in a pinch, etc. The duskblade is a good example here.
Someone who uses magic to fight better, I would not call a Gish, just out of personal taste. The magical equivalent of a psychic warrior - casting enlarge on himself, or bull strength, etc.
The Swordmage skirts the difference given that he has various magical-based attacks that effect areas. Like the acid blast ability, etc.
Booming Blade
Swordmage Attack 1
...
Hit: 1d8 + 5 damage, and if the target is adjacent to you at the start
of its turn and moves away, it takes 1d6 + 4 thunder damage.
Hrmm, how does that work? Is the secondary effect keyed off wisdom, half of constitution, or some such?
Am I missing something here? This seems to be the only thing that doesn't add up. I mean, it's still part of a power with the weapon keyword, and not a fixed amount of damage, so wouldn't it get the enhancement and weapon focus bonuses?
Since 3.x, a rogue "fights" well as does the barbarian and the ranger. So it is no longer the fighter that alone "fights" well.
So, what does a gish actually represent then?
(p.s., anyone's text NOT showing up when they write a response to a thread? Mine's invisible for s ome reason....)
This iss interesting...What does
Perhaps the key attribute for the attacks is Con. His bonus is +4, +1 for the magic, and his prof. bonus might only be +2, add +2 for level, and you get +9.
The second effect might be keyed off of Int, tho, which would explain why it's only +4 for damage.
That'd explain why Con is primary in the build as well.
Perhaps the key attribute for the attacks is Con. His bonus is +4, +1 for the magic, and his prof. bonus might only be +2, add +2 for level, and you get +9.
Except for the part where he's wielding a +1 longsword.
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