D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
Disheartening strike feels like it should be an A. A- at least. If you are a ruthless ruffian it is patently better than sly flourish. The -2 to all attacks the enemy makes is enormous. I will follow up after more play.
-2 penalty is the same as Illusory Ambush, that's mainly why it's a B. Brutal Scoundrals gain their strength bonus to every sneak attack, instead of just rattling ones like Ruthless Ruffians, so I'm not sure if that's enough of an incentive to bump it up a knotch. I felt it was better than Sly Flourish, but not better than Piercing Strike, that's the other reason why it's sitting at a B. If more people agree Disheartening Strike helps the rogue do his job as well as Piercing Strike, I'll consider bumping it up to a B+.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Main reason is because with Dual Strike, you can't target two opponents, you must attack the same target. Secondly, the reason Twin Strike is so good is because it makes it much more likely to deal the Hunter's Quarry damage once per round. If fighters had such a feature that applied once per round to a target that's hit, this would bump the power up to an A (not an A+ because twin strike still has the advantage in minion clearing). The fighter's schtick is being able to mark things, and dual strike does not let them mark multiple targets. If it did, that alone might have pushed the power to an A+. As it stands, I think Dual Strike is an A- compared to Twin Strike which we graded an A+.
You don't need a power that works once a round. There are better things than that:
Dual Strike 1w/1w
Marking Scourge +wis
Pitfighter or Lawbreaker's Doom(Dragon 370) - +wis
Either Tempest or Battlerager with temp hit points +2
WF +2
At 11th level, it isn't at all improbable that a character could do:
1w+14/1w+14 with an at-will and a non-magical weapon. Dual Strike also means that you mark and then swing again, so you have a chance of using Marking Scourge/Lawbreaker's Doom.
*FIGHTER*
B- / Cleave
B- / Reaping Strike
F / Sure Strike (could be worked into a build that lets you use at-wills for OAs or purely as a minion killing maneuver)
B / Tide of Iron A- / Brash Strike A / Crushing Surge A- / Dual Strike B+ / Footwork Lure
I'd say footwork lure isn't any better than tide of iron. Brash strike too is probably at best a B+. It's fine for some builds, but the combat advantage hurts; and it's not as flexible as cleave/tide of iron. It's primary advantage is great damage output, but it's worse than cleave vs. minions, and a Con-build will want crushing surge - so it's facing stiff competition. I agree that Crushing surge is excellent, a solid A. Dual strike is indeed worse than twin strike, though obviously some builds will value it above all other fighter powers.
__________________
4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
*RANGER*
F / Careful Strike
C- / Hit and Run
B / Nimble Strike
A+ / Twin Strike B / Circling Strike B- / Predator Strike
Predator strike looks poor. No enhancement bonus to damage? Mediocre attack bonus? It's almost certainly only viable at high levels, when the beasts attack bonus catches up somewhat, but the damage will never be great. I might be missing some feats or trick that improve it, however. Certainly at low levels it's not much good.
I agree. I'd still value piercing strike higher, but disheartening is certainly better that the rest.
Quote:
*WARLORD*
B- / Commander's Strike
B+ / Furious Smash
B- / Viper's Strike
B / Wolf Pack Tactics C+ / Brash Assault C / Opening Shove
Both new powers are indeed mediocre. If Brash Strike actually ever works, an opponent won't fall for it again, and then it's just a melee basic attack. Essentially, it can only ever be better than a melee basic attack if enemies are stupid, and the basic attack of an enemy is less useful against you than your allies basic attack against him. That's rare; monster basic attacks are good and PC attacks are poor. You'll generally only win if somehow your AC is very good, or the monster's AC is poor, or you have a rogue or ranger that for some reason didn't get sneak attack/ hunter's quarry in. However, most rogues/ranger will try that every round, so even with a rogue or ranger in the party, this power is situational and still only any good against unwise opponents. I'd say Brash Assault is worse than opening shove - maybe a D, no better. Opening shove is weird, but at least in some circumstances it might be a real benefit. Brash Assault is almost never any good.
__________________
4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
Last edited by eamon; 11th December 2008 at 05:26 PM..
I'd say Brash Assault is worse than opening shove - maybe a D, no better. Opening shove is weird, but at least in some circumstances it might be a real benefit. Brash Assault is almost never any good.
I was looking at Brash Assault for my tactical warlord, and it's kind of a strange power. Much like the fighter's Combat Challenge, it forces the DM to make a tough decision right in the middle of a fight where he's probably got other stuff on his mind. Iff he's willing to play along with it, it'd be hilarious to see the interaction of BA with the fighter's challenge! (3 basic attacks to the monster's one.)
That's a big iff though...
-blarg
__________________ Red Hot Swing
"In Inspired Sarlona, nightmares have you!" -Klaus
You don't need a power that works once a round. There are better things than that:
Dual Strike 1w/1w
Marking Scourge +wis
Pitfighter or Lawbreaker's Doom(Dragon 370) - +wis
Either Tempest or Battlerager with temp hit points +2
WF +2
Valid points (if a bit situational), I might bump it up to an A, depending on other feedback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eamon
I'd say footwork lure isn't any better than tide of iron.
But in practice, it is. The fighters with Tide of Iron can't seem to use it very well to provide flanks. But Footwork Lure can easily open up great flank opportunities to the rogue, without exposing the rogue as much to the enemy line. Mechanically, they do the same thing, but tactically, Footwork Lure is a knotch better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eamon
Brash strike too is probably at best a B+. It's fine for some builds, but the combat advantage hurts; and it's not as flexible as cleave/tide of iron. It's primary advantage is great damage output, but it's worse than cleave vs. minions, and a Con-build will want crushing surge - so it's facing stiff competition.
It depends on the build. For a battlerager who is giving up weapon talent and a point of proficiency, it perfectly makes up for the lost attack bonus. I may have been a little too excited about this fix for Sure Strike. I'll consider knocking it down to B+.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eamon
Predator strike looks poor. No enhancement bonus to damage? Mediocre attack bonus? It's almost certainly only viable at high levels, when the beasts attack bonus catches up somewhat, but the damage will never be great. I might be missing some feats or trick that improve it, however. Certainly at low levels it's not much good.
At low level, your Wisdom modifier is what makes up for the enhancement bonus to damage, and you can usually give your beast companion a flank. It didn't seem too different than Sly Flourish, but I guess not using a weapon, you're not getting any weapon focused magic or feats, which makes it a bit worse. I'll gladly knock this down to a C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eamon
Both new powers are indeed mediocre. If Brash Strike actually ever works, an opponent won't fall for it again, and then it's just a melee basic attack. Essentially, it can only ever be better than a melee basic attack if enemies are stupid, and the basic attack of an enemy is less useful against you than your allies basic attack against him. That's rare; monster basic attacks are good and PC attacks are poor. You'll generally only win if somehow your AC is very good, or the monster's AC is poor, or you have a rogue or ranger that for some reason didn't get sneak attack/ hunter's quarry in. However, most rogues/ranger will try that every round, so even with a rogue or ranger in the party, this power is situational and still only any good against unwise opponents. I'd say Brash Assault is worse than opening shove - maybe a D, no better. Opening shove is weird, but at least in some circumstances it might be a real benefit. Brash Assault is almost never any good.
Brash Assault makes me scartch my head also. I haven't seen it or anything like it in action though, that's why I was giving it the benefit of the doubt. For a moment let's assume monsters will always take the attack. I think it becomes a question of how outnumbered you are. If you and an ally are outnumbered 4 to 2, that means enemies take 4 attacks against your 2. Changing that ratio to 5 attacks verses 3 is beneficial. However if you outnumber the enemy 2 to 1, you're giving them an extra attack, changing your ratio to 3 to 2 which is advantageous for the enemy.
Once the DM figures this out, it's easy enough to make the quick calculation and essentially always screw the player. I'll knock it down to a D.
Thanks for the feedback.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I also added Druid powers, so please take a look at those as well. Most of them seem pretty average when I balance the pros against cons (which is impressive from a design PoV), but I may be missing something.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I also added Druid powers, so please take a look at those as well. Most of them seem pretty average when I balance the pros against cons (which is impressive from a design PoV), but I may be missing something.
I dunno, I think Chill Wind merits at least a B+. It targets Fort and does less damage than Scorching Burst, but the sliding is pretty boss. Minions don't usually have super-high Fort, so I wouldn't rate it much worse than SB in that respect either.
I think Savage Rend deserves an A-. It's a melee basic attack, so it can be used on OAs, and a slide can be just as tactically useful as CA if a defender is nearby. Definitely better than Grasping Claws, you don't want enemies staying near you.
EDIT: And Chill Wind works nicely with Lasting Frost/Wintertouched. Area cold spells are niiiice.
Chill Wind is, frankly, pretty amazing. The loss of a stat mod is painful, but you can do some really nice things with that many slides. It still kills minions fine and the damage is low enough you don't have to care about hitting your party defender with it really.
Shame about it targeting Fort and the Fort imbalance, though.
I dunno, I think Chill Wind merits at least a B+. It targets Fort and does less damage than Scorching Burst, but the sliding is pretty boss. Minions don't usually have super-high Fort, so I wouldn't rate it much worse than SB in that respect either.
EDIT: And Chill Wind works nicely with Lasting Frost/Wintertouched. Area cold spells are niiiice.
I went back and forth between a B and a B+ for it. The lack of stat bonus to damage can mean, you are missing out on 8+ points of damage assuming you manage to hit 2 things in the area, and gain two slide 1's instead. Sliding is nice when you can be precise about it, but 8+ points is a lot of damage, especially at heroic levels. I think the power becomes better at higher levels. But I do like the fact that you can dump it on friendlies without worrying too much about the damage, and if you happen to hit, you can slide them to advantageous positions as well. I'll bump it to a B+.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesnomu
I think Savage Rend deserves an A-. It's a melee basic attack, so it can be used on OAs, and a slide can be just as tactically useful as CA if a defender is nearby. Definitely better than Grasping Claws, you don't want enemies staying near you.
On second look, I should have graded it a B+, it definitely is also better than Tide of Iron. It's even slightly better than footwork lure, so I can see an A-. But when I look at the other A powers, it does fall a bit short. The scale is not quite granular enough for that much accuracy, I'll make it a B+ for now.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Also, WTF at Pressing Strike being a C+. It's Tide of Iron + a better Deft Strike put together, and it does extra damage when raging. I mean, what else do you want it to do, make you breakfast?!
My dragonborn barbarian uses it all the time to get into flanking positions or extend his movement (which is nice when you wear chain). I don't regret not getting Howling Strike at all, he does plenty of damage already.
Nah, if you look carefully, you don't add your ability modifier to the damage of either attack, so it's actually kinda crappy, IMO. Once your ability modifier exceeds 5, on average you'll be doing more damage with a basic attack than with Twin Strike...
My elf dances like Gene Kelly in Brigadoon around all the baddies and Twin Strike makes it much much worse.
1) Move in.
2) Minor action to designate quarry.
3) Twin strike (1d8+1d8+2/1d8+2) for an average of 17 damage (I hardly miss since the elf's speed allows me to get into flanking position with my Fighter and Elven Accuracy is always useful).
4) Action point: Favorite Encounter power to strike (average damage: +14-18 more for a total of 31-35 in 1 round; assuming that I hit with all attacks, again flanking) and get away (I have a good Wis allowing me to shift like Blagojevich at a FBI fund raiser). Crit hits make all these powers much worse and since I am rolling so many d20s chances are one will be.
If any of the baddies decide to chase my ranger, well then they probably get hit by my fighter since they were marked or I just yield ground after their first hit and dance away.
I have played this PC in many different LFR mods and he totally rules. Love the dancing elf ranger.
-2 penalty is the same as Illusory Ambush, that's mainly why it's a B. Brutal Scoundrals gain their strength bonus to every sneak attack, instead of just rattling ones like Ruthless Ruffians, so I'm not sure if that's enough of an incentive to bump it up a knotch. I felt it was better than Sly Flourish, but not better than Piercing Strike, that's the other reason why it's sitting at a B. If more people agree Disheartening Strike helps the rogue do his job as well as Piercing Strike, I'll consider bumping it up to a B+.
Don't forget, a Ruthless Ruffian doesn't need CA to get the bonus to damage. And in that context...
One of the big advantages of Disheartening Strike in combo with Ruthless Ruffian is that a Rogue can do 1d8+Dex+Str and the -2 to hit as an at-will. That's clearly better than a Paladin's Enfeebling Strike or Wizard's Illusory Ambush.
Also, WTF at Pressing Strike being a C+. It's Tide of Iron + a better Deft Strike put together, and it does extra damage when raging. I mean, what else do you want it to do, make you breakfast?!
My dragonborn barbarian uses it all the time to get into flanking positions or extend his movement (which is nice when you wear chain). I don't regret not getting Howling Strike at all, he does plenty of damage already.
Valid point, hadn't made the Deft Strike comparison. It should probably be a B or B+. Anyone else want to weigh in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by apearlma
Don't forget, a Ruthless Ruffian doesn't need CA to get the bonus to damage. And in that context...
One of the big advantages of Disheartening Strike in combo with Ruthless Ruffian is that a Rogue can do 1d8+Dex+Str and the -2 to hit as an at-will. That's clearly better than a Paladin's Enfeebling Strike or Wizard's Illusory Ambush.
B+ it is then.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Avenging Light is pretty much like Eldritch Blast, slightly worse because it targets Fortitude, but makes up for it with a little extra damage if there is an adjacent bloodied ally.
Divine Bolts is an A power like most other powers which do decent damage to multiple targets, but it's on the lower end of the curve, and takes a -.
Grasping Shards is an average power. Comparable to Ray of Frost, less damage, multiple targets.
Sun Strike is a great power. Sliding opponents around from a safe distance to provide flanks is a good pseudo-leader power.
Vanguard Lightning is basically as good as scorching burst, except there are fewer creatures resistant to lightning, than fire, and it has an additional small bonus. Not sure if it should be an A or A+, it's only a very small bit better than Scorching Burst.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I'd say Vanguard Lightning is just a very solid A. A+ should probably be reserved for those choices that are both build defining and likely to be used at every opportunity.
VL will probably show up in the large majority of Invoker builds but I'm guessing it will be pretty rare that it will be the most used at will in any given encounter.
Well, Vanguard Lightning is just flat out better than Scorching Burst... but yes there's only so much give there in the grading scale.
I do think Grasping Shards is better than you give it credit for - it kills minions just as well as Scorching Burst, does radiant which is good against undead, and area slow is solid (much more so than single target). At 21st+ level it's potentially better than Scorching Burst when it picks up the d10, but Fort is most annoying then and slow least effective so probably not.
Just curious with the designers saying after the invoker preview that they think the wizards at wills are a bit sub-par have people rethought there grading on wizard at wills. Now that I've been playing a while I don't rate the area at wills nearly as high as I thought in the beginning. You have to hit 2 people to be in the same ballpark as non strikers in damage, and you kind of need 3 hits to make it an A rating spell IMO. And in play that really just does not happen nearly enough for these powers to be As.
My in play experience form the DM side of things would be.
Wizard.
Cloud of daggers B+(guaranteed minion killing and a zone of effect)
Magic Missle B- The range kicks it up to B-
Ray of frost C+ Lame damage, slow end sup being ineffective
Scorching burst B+ need to many targets for it to pan out.
Thunderwave A- The push really has been useful
Illusionary Ambush(have not seen it in play, but B)
I'm not sure I'd call that a sub-par list except in relation to the invokers. But it is not as good as I initially thought.
__________________ There is no force in the universe strong enough to protect you from your own stupidity.
I'll update the first post if people discuss the values.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
