D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
Controllers appear to be defined by their at-wills, so they basically get better ones than most, with some exceptions (like twin strike). A Scorching Burst that hits two people does comparable damage to a warlock... and if you're not hitting two people, then you should use a different at-will.
New class previews mean a new set of at-wills! Unfortunately, the Warden's are rather uninteresting:
Earth Shield Strike - It's like 3.5's Dodge all over again! Thorough meh, worse than Thundering Armor. I give it a C.
Strength of Stone - Pretty handy, equal to Recuperating Strike, minus the bonus for raging. B.
Thorn Strike - This one's kinda neat, although it's a shame it doesn't extend to three for reach weapons. For a defender, pulling is better than pushing, so I'd put it as better than Tide of Iron: B+
Weight of Earth - Worse than Grasping Claws, since it's not a melee basic. Slowed is a pretty good condition for a defender to give out, though. B-.
New class previews mean a new set of at-wills! Unfortunately, the Warden's are rather uninteresting:
Earth Shield Strike - It's like 3.5's Dodge all over again! Thorough meh, worse than Thundering Armor. I give it a C.
Strength of Stone - Pretty handy, equal to Recuperating Strike, minus the bonus for raging. B.
Thorn Strike - This one's kinda neat, although it's a shame it doesn't extend to three for reach weapons. For a defender, pulling is better than pushing, so I'd put it as better than Tide of Iron: B+
Weight of Earth - Worse than Grasping Claws, since it's not a melee basic. Slowed is a pretty good condition for a defender to give out, though. B-.
Yeah I rate those differently
Earth Shield Strike . Teh awesome. You hit and get a minor AC boost. B+
Strength of Stone Hit and get temp HPS great at low levels average higher levels up. If you have a good con which you effectively avoid small amounts of damage every time you hit. And since even at mid to high levels damage done is not 3e huge it is fairly cool. B+
Weight of Earth: I basically agree with you on this. Yeah slow is cool, but its a melee attack, its rare for them to just run past you once you are in mellee so the beenfot is smal, though I guess it may improve the chances that who ever you are in combat with wont try to run past you toward a softer target. B-
Thorn Strike: I like it a pull is slick, its get over here time. Not bad assed or anyhting but its fun and effective. B+
edited out class features
__________________ There is no force in the universe strong enough to protect you from your own stupidity.
Last edited by Ahglock; 8th January 2009 at 04:48 AM..
Eh. You won't even notice the AC boost most of the time, and it makes your mark less valuable, since it encourages enemies not to attack you. Lame.
Something is screwed up with the Temp HP powers, though. The Paladin's Bolstering Smite gets a B-, the barb's Recup Strike gets B+, and the Fighter's Crushing Surge gets an A, when (correct me if I'm wrong) they all do the exact same thing! (Melee basic w/ secondary stat to Temp HP.) What's the deal?
I suspect that's people having some pretty big differences of opinion in how useful temp hp are.
I can say that I think Crushing Surge is completely wrong, since it also suffers from some MAD (shared save with Str, etc) - probably people are objecting more to the Battlerager than Crushing Surge itself.
probably people are objecting more to the Battlerager than Crushing Surge itself.
Yup, that's that's exactly the case for me. If it didn't stack with existing temporary hit points from battle rager. Take away the battlerager build, and I think I'd set it at a B. And for what it's worth, I think Bolstering Smite deserves a B as well. Recuperating strike is a bit better because Constitution is useful to a barbarian in many ways, and its effect when raging is quite potent.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Other than battleragers, how many fighters are taking Crushing Surge over other options, I wonder.
For paladins, I wonder how much use bolstering sees over holy strike (IME, holy strike sees more use, but there's a definite use for both), which is a pretty vanilla at-will.
Other than battleragers, how many fighters are taking Crushing Surge over other options, I wonder.
Since one feat (Untamed Berserker Style) turns Cleave into a conditional Crushing Surge (or unconditional depending on interpretation, link), there probably isn't much point in taking Crushing Surge for a non-battlerager.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
For paladins, I wonder how much use bolstering sees over holy strike (IME, holy strike sees more use, but there's a definite use for both), which is a pretty vanilla at-will.
One is charisma based, the other is strength based. I think the more appropriate comparison would be between enfeebling strike and bolstering strike, and in our games, I see about even use (one game enfeebling gets used more often, the other game bolstering gets used more often).
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Honestly, I think that MAD puts a serious crimp in Bolstering's style, especially as you get higher level. It's definitely solid, but it doesn't seem that exceptional and seems easily dropped over time.
And, yes, it's interesting to compare Crushing Surge to Cleave with a feat.
Honestly, I think that MAD puts a serious crimp in Bolstering's style, especially as you get higher level. It's definitely solid, but it doesn't seem that exceptional and seems easily dropped over time.
And, yes, it's interesting to compare Crushing Surge to Cleave with a feat.
Well, Bolstering is Cha-based, right? I think a Cha/Wis pally wouldn't be that hard to pull off, especially once you snagged HBO. I'd put it right alongside Crushing Surge, I think at-will rating ought to be build-agnostic.
And heck, has anyone even played a Battlerager yet? Are they really overpowered?
This highlights well why it doesn't work well - your stats are so spread that you're sacrificing something major to get more than like 2 temp hp out of the power.
Which is why it's not very impressive. You just demanded the build have a good Dexterity, in addition to the Wis and Cha, while Wis does nothing for the paladin except support its powers' secondary effects. Pretty quickly you'll get to a point where you're like "So... if you had just taken Con instead of the Wis to make this build work, you'd have the hp you're getting instead of temp, heal more with every surge, and have an extra surge?"
The more the build gets out of the power, the less arduous it seems. If there's no MAD at all, cause it's not a conflicting stat, then that's the real winner.
And heck, has anyone even played a Battlerager yet? Are they really overpowered?
I've played alongside one, and DM'ed for one. Overpowered is not a good word. Bad design is what I would say. It makes the greatweapon fighter build completely obsolete, and it makes the guardian fighter build questionable, especially if you have a racial Con bonus or gain some other benefit from a high Con (such as being Dragonborn).
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mengu
Since one feat (Untamed Berserker Style) turns Cleave into a conditional Crushing Surge (or unconditional depending on interpretation, link), there probably isn't much point in taking Crushing Surge for a non-battlerager.
..but since said feat is only in Dragon.....who cares?
I play a BRV fighter, and having that feat available might have been cool. Too bad it's not in a WotC book.
So...in this thread are we grading stuff in Dragon mag too? That seems like a waste.
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
So...in this thread are we grading stuff in Dragon mag too? That seems like a waste.
Depends on your PoV. If you are in RPGA, everything, including Dragon magazine is available for use. Some DM's like to make everything available to their players. Some DM's will limit the books you have access to. I have some players who are perfectly content with the options in the PHB.
I don't think it's a waste, as long as its useful to someone.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
This highlights well why it doesn't work well - your stats are so spread that you're sacrificing something major to get more than like 2 temp hp out of the power.
Which is why it's not very impressive. You just demanded the build have a good Dexterity, in addition to the Wis and Cha, while Wis does nothing for the paladin except support its powers' secondary effects. Pretty quickly you'll get to a point where you're like "So... if you had just taken Con instead of the Wis to make this build work, you'd have the hp you're getting instead of temp, heal more with every surge, and have an extra surge?"
The more the build gets out of the power, the less arduous it seems. If there's no MAD at all, cause it's not a conflicting stat, then that's the real winner.
Well, OK, I forgot the Dex req for HBO. But still, high Wis is good for a Paladin, between power effects and Lay on Hands uses. A Cha/Wis paladin won't have great OAs compared to a Str/Cha one, but they can heal more and many of their powers have greater effects, not just Bolstering. I think my point stands.
Pallys are a bit MAD in general, but that's why they get plate and an extra surge over Fighters.
Yeah, paladins just kinda make me sad at the moment with how all over the place they are - I'm kinda hoping that Divine Power (in, what, 6 months?) will clean things up a little.
Sorc Time! Some of these are pretty neat! Remember that they're all adding a secondary stat to damage. Here's my thoughts:
Acid Orb: Eldritch Blast with (rarely resisted) typed damage and double range. B
Burning Spray: With cloth, getting close to the fight is dangerous, but this will almost certainly be the most damaging Sorc at-will if you can get multiple enemies, and the bonus for Dragon Magic helps avoid attacks. A-? It's very nice, anyway.
Chaos Bolt: Bizarre! You could clear out every minion in the room with this if you get super lucky, and targeting Will and doing psychic damage (ouch w/ Psychic Lock) doesn't hurt either. Of course, if you go Dragon, it's just a more even Spiteful Glamour. B+.
Dragonfrost: A vs. Fort, d8 Eldritch Blast with a push. Unless you really value the push, I'd take Acid Orb over this. C+.
Stormwalk: Nimble Strike with a d8 and targeting Fort. B-.
Overall, not bad! Both power sources have a rather nifty at-will going for them, although Burning Spray is only a bit worse for Wilders. The rest are less inspiring, but at least we don't have another Careful Attack here.
I am currently playing a Human Wrath Invoker in a game, and I chose as my At-Wills Divine Bolts, Grasping Shards, and Vanguard's Lightning.
If I had to drop one (meaning nonhuman), I would drop VL. I have followed the argument about Ray of Frost in this thread, and while I don't necessarily agree with everything there, the general consensus seems to be correct.
Shards is nothing like Ray. As keterys (I think) said, Shards kills Minions just fine. Burst Slow is also much more useful than might be expected. Also, in the '2 creature' issue, Divine Bolts is more flexible than either Burst.
Also, anecdotally, Invokers shred Undead like nobody's business.
I'm intending to take a pass through the book that this thread has become, so that I can summarize and recreate it, and also split off a PH2 (and beyond) thread. I'll be going through trying to see if I should adjust any ratings on the front page, and adding ones for, say, Martial Power as I do so, but I'd also like to justify ratings given. I'm thinking of adding a section something like this for the powers - can you let me know if it's useful, not useful, or any suggested changes.
Grade Justifications:
When listing notable advantages and disadvantages of a power I’ll tag each with a number of + or – signs. One (+/-) signifies a minor advantage or disadvantage, two (++/--) moderate, three major, four extreme. These are not intended to be equivalent in any way; a single moderate advantage or disadvantage might outweigh several minor ones and a minor advantage might outweigh a minor disadvantage.
*CLERIC*
Spoiler:
Lance of Faith: B+
Damage – Average
Advantage – Radiant (+), +2 attack bonus to an ally (++)
Disadvantage – Short range (-)
Summary – Lance of Faith is a good staple power that will almost always be helpful for setting up encounter and daily powers, or stronger damage attacks from other allies.
Priest’s Shield: C-
Damage – Average
Perks - +1 AC bonus to adjacent ally (+)
Downsides – position requirement (adjacent) a downside for melee (forsakes flank, sets up area attacks) (--)
Summary – Priest’s Shield is slightly better than a basic attack, but not appreciably. Its bonus is actually minor enough that its chance of mattering is very small and it is easily forgotten.
Righteous Brand: A+
Damage – Average
Perks - +Str bonus to a round of attacks for ally within 5 (++++)
Summary – Righteous Brand is extraordinarily powerful in certain groups for setting up ally attacks. Because it’s a Str attack based on Str, it’s power level is fairly extreme for setting up status effect and large damage attacks, especially at higher level.
Sacred Flame: A-
Damage – Low (-)
Perks – Radiant (+), Saving throw or Cha+Lvl/2 temp to ally within sight (+++)
Downsides – Short range (-)
Summary – Sacred Flame is fantastic for obtaining saving throws for allies, and its temporary hp can be quite considerable compared to the damage output of many creatures.
I'm thinking it would go after what's already there in the first post - so the summary is still intact, but then you can dig deeper.
Last edited by keterys; 7th April 2009 at 10:15 PM..
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
