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Why no love for Sly Flourish? Do people not realize it can be used with a ranged weapon unlike Piercing Strike and Riposte Strike?
Oh, and there any errata on Riposte Strike yet? Because there doesn't seem to be any range limitations on the riposte interrupt attack.
The power has the melee keyword and no listed range. This means that all attacks that you make with it have a range equal to the range of your melee weapon (most likely 1, unless you've somehow found a light blade with reach).
The power has the melee keyword and no listed range. This means that all attacks that you make with it have a range equal to the range of your melee weapon (most likely 1, unless you've somehow found a light blade with reach).
That is an interesting theory. I would agree it could logically work that way, but the immediate interrupt attack caused by riposte strike hitting is not a secondary attack, it is a consequence of the power hitting. If it was a secondary attack I would have never bothered with it, because secondary attacks do have the clause about using the same range as the power's first attack unless otherwise noted.
Also, we need a common term other than effect to describe what happens when a power hits and does something, otherwise talking about powers is going to get confusing fast.
I guess this depends on your DM, but I find a lot of the area denial arguments about CoD unpersuasive. If a enemy has to choose between losing a turn or getting blasted by range another round vs simply charging through the daggers, I think he is going to go right through them. Similarly to try and finish off that pesky wizard that is whittling him down, its probably well worth the damage just to get flanking and smack the squishy with his big attack.
The daggers have no status effect, its usually going to be a measley 2 or 3 HP of damage which is not much against the inflated HP of 4e creatures. All things equal no one is going to step in that square for the fun of it. But in the life and death of combat where every round is critical, not losing a turn or avoiding a bad tactical situation, outweighs the minor deterrence it provides.
I beg to differ for a minion.
In fact, if a minion does enter it and gets killed, the non-minion behind him should assume that it insta-death and avoid it.
The rule that creatures know how powers affect them only applies to powers currently affecting them. It does not apply to a power which is not currently affecting them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchback
Still the damage alone can be an argument over MM, but as a 'control' spell its pretty weak.
It's not just a control spell. It's the strongest single target At Will Wizard spell bar none. I am not saying that it is a super strong control spell. I am saying that it is the strongest damage At Will Single target spell which also has some minor control aspects. Not great (it is At Will after all), but not non-existent either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwell
Nice post and analysis!
Thanks. I spent a lot of time analyzing options when designing my Human Int 20 Wizard (who took Cloud of Daggers, Scorching Ray, and Thunderwave).
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Last edited by KarinsDad; 3rd July 2008 at 01:03 AM..
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
1. And if you're an artful dodger, you may not care.
It's still a disadvantage.
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Originally Posted by keterys
2. This statement is a gross failure to see the benefits of the extra 2 movement. You can use Deft Strike, then a move after. You can use Deft Strike to avoid using a Run action when your base move is insufficient for any number of reasons. You can combine shift with deft strike to move 3 while not provoking in some circumstances, etc.
I see the benefits, but they are underwhelming.
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Originally Posted by keterys
3. You can throw a shuriken while using Deft Strike.
Why would you? The point is to take advantage of temporary combat advantage when you have just one action, but that can be done just as easily with a ranged basic attack.
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Originally Posted by keterys
This is just wrong. Even a basic 4th level character who deals 1d8 + 7 damage (4 stat, 2 enh, 1 feat, for instance) deals more damage from +2 hit than +2 damage. In addition, hitting and having _some_ effect is almost always better than missing more often but doing slightly more damage. Minions, almost dead critters, effects which trigger on hits, etc. It's definitely worth taking a penalty to hit for more damage (hence why Sure Strike is lackluster, just not enough bang for the buck) but +2 dmg < +2 hit barring extraordinary circumstances.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I was thinking here. Statistically, the attack vs damage point is always at 10...
When your average damage > 10; +1 attack > +1 damage
When your average damage > 10; +2 attack > +2 damage
...and so forth.
When your average damage > 11; +2 attack > (+1 atk, +1 dam)
zZz...
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In fact, if a minion does enter it and gets killed, the non-minion behind him should assume that it insta-death and avoid it.
All attack powers are insta-death to a minion. A Wizard's basic dagger attack is insta-death to a minion. That doesn't mean the hobgoblin warlord is going to avoid engaging a Wizard in melee.
In fact, if a minion does enter it and gets killed, the non-minion behind him should assume that it insta-death and avoid it.
The rule that creatures know how powers affect them only applies to powers currently affecting them. It does not apply to a power which is not currently affecting them.
I see you have a human so I can understand your choices. But with 2 picks its harder. CoD is good against minion's but if you at all have a chance to hit more than 1, I would prefer Scorching Burst or Thundewave. I have Scorching at the moment, so taking CoD to derail minions as well is harder to justify. And then I would be stuck with two vs Reflex at wills.
On a non-human I -might- agree, but as a human this will always be one of my 3 at-wills. Fighters aren't there to damage, they're there to be sticky. With heavy blade opportunity, you get +2 (sure strike) + wis + probably a +2 from combat reflexes (or whatever that feat was called) to attack on OA's. These OA's aren't there to damage but to make sure that ugly brute stops moving past you to hit the squishies you're protecting.
Good point. When I first posted I thought that there might be a scenario where Sure Strike is a decent choice; for Careful Attack, this is never the case, since Twin Strike does everything Careful Attack can do, but better. There is no other Fighter at-will that gives an increased chance to hit, but there are very, very few scenarios where an improved chance to hit trumps a higher expected damage, and you've found one of them (maybe the only one?).
Having said that, this is very situational: applies only to OA provoked by movement, requires a paragon feat, and 15 Dex. Also (minor point), the victim of the OA can still use its standard action to keep moving. Bear in mind also that in all other circumstances, this at-will is inferior to all others (but you've conceded that point by saying you'd only consider it as the bonus at-will for a human Fighter). Nevertheless, it's a useful feat in this specific circumstance. I'll boost my recommendation from -1 to 0.
Last edited by Ulorian; 3rd July 2008 at 01:46 AM..
Reason: typo
My Human Wizard chose Magic Missile, Thunderwave and Scorching Burst.
Magic Missile - There was exactly one deciding factor: range. Scorching Burst is nice, but Magic Missile is better, because it means combat is happening very far away from me. It's proven very valuable (because my party lacks a Ranger); it could be less valuable in other parties.
Thunderwave - I have this for those very unfortunate occasions when combat is happening in my direct vicinity. It's not an overstatement to say it saved my life at 2nd level, when I was trying to lurk around a corner and suddenly a bunch of skeletons instantiated themselves all around me. I killed about eight skeletons -- half the attack force -- without taking too much damage.
Scorching Burst - This is my usual power, for when combat is happening between my most favorite range (ranged 20) and my least favorite range (close blast).
- - -
What I discarded, and why:
Cloud of Daggers - Excellent damage, but the control-area is just too small. If it did less damage but in a larger area, or had a longer range, I'd have taken it happily.
Ray of Frost - Poor target defense, and poor side-effect: Slow is not that great for a single-target who's already within 10 squares of me. At mid-range, I want to Push, Immobilize or inflict an attack penalty.
Illusory Ambush - Wasn't available. Is too good to pass up when combined with Psychic Lock, and Dark Fury is easily within my reach, so I'm considering what to trade for it at 11th level.
Cheers, -- N
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
I see you have a human so I can understand your choices. But with 2 picks its harder. CoD is good against minion's but if you at all have a chance to hit more than 1, I would prefer Scorching Burst or Thundewave. I have Scorching at the moment, so taking CoD to derail minions as well is harder to justify. And then I would be stuck with two vs Reflex at wills.
Two picks is harder. One (more or less) has to be area effect and one has to be single target.
That does not invalidate that CoD is typically better than either Magic Missile or Ray of Frost as the single target one.
Having two Reflex save At Wills is not really that big of a deal considering that Wizards also get Per Encounter spells.
There are very few creatures in the Monster Manual where Reflex is way (i.e. 3 or more) better than Fort. There are about 30 some creatures (< 5%) with Reflex 3 or more higher than Fort. There are hundreds of creatures with Fort 3 or more higher than Reflex (and many of those are 5 or higher) and many hundreds more 1 or 2 higher.
So, a Wizard player is screwing himself big time taking Ray of Frost as his single target At Will power (especially considering that he cannot buff it with Lasting Frost until level 11).
Your justification for taking Cloud of Daggers (or Magic Missile for range) and Scorching Ray for your two picks is staring you in the face. Reflex is a lot better than Fort, regardless of the PHB suggesting that PCs try to get one of each type. That's what Per Encounter spells are for.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Your justification for taking Cloud of Daggers (or Magic Missile for range) and Scorching Ray for your two picks is staring you in the face. Reflex is a lot better than Fort, regardless of the PHB suggesting that PCs try to get one of each type. That's what Per Encounter spells are for.
Oops. I should have said my 2nd is Illusory Ambush from the Class Acts article. Here is how it ranks vs CoD.
CoD +2 damage (My Wizard's wis bonus)
I. Ambush +2 or +3 to Hit Will (vs Reflex on average), and -2 to Hit for the enemy.
Even if one were not using the Illusion spells I would be hard pressed to go against Ray of Frost as a 2nd though. It at least has a 'control' option that can affect non-minions to a useful degree. Whereas CoD's version of control is just a zone that does 2 damage. Then you would have 2 spells that just do damage, that is the striker's job. And your at-wills will be used around 80% of the time.
I guess you can debate the worthiness of a zone 1 square in size for making minion's go around it, or killing them 1 at a time, but I just haven't found it very impressive.
If one were only choosing it for its single target damage, it would do on average .5 more damage than Magic Missile for a +2 Wis bonus. If you splurged on a higher Wis, it might get more attractive. Personally, I think a Wizard should not be making decisions based on such tiny damage increases considering what the strikers in the group are putting out.
Last edited by Switchback; 3rd July 2008 at 02:31 AM..
Oops. I should have said my 2nd is Illusory Ambush from the Class Acts article. Here is how it ranks vs CoD.
CoD +2 damage (My Wizard's wis bonus)
I. Ambush +2 or +3 to Hit Will (vs Reflex on average), and -2 to Hit for the enemy.
Even if one were not using the Illusion spells I would be hard pressed to go against Ray of Frost as a 2nd though. It at least has a 'control' option that can affect non-minions to a useful degree. Whereas CoD's version of control is just a zone that does 2 damage. Then you would have 2 spells that just do damage, that is the striker's job.
I guess you can debate the worthiness of a zone 1 square in size for making minion's go around it, or killing them 1 at a time, but I just haven't found it very impressive.
Illusory Ambush is a fine At Will power. I can definitely see taking it instead of any of the other single target At Wills.
Ray of Frost sucks. It's the worse of the single target lot. Its control is pretty limited (range 4 movement for a creature max range 10 from the Wizard). It's very likely that most such creatures can either charge some other PC (or sometimes even the Wizard) or do a range attack in most circumstances.
Ray of Frost does suboptimal damage, it does suboptimal control, and it attacks a suboptimal defense (which means that it does its suboptimal control less often). 3 bad out of 3.
Cloud of Daggers (typically) does the best damage, it too does suboptimal control, it attacks one of the best defenses, and it also auto-kills minions. 3 good out of 4.
Check the Monster Manual where hundreds of creatures have Fort defenses 1 to 5 (or even as high as 9) greater than their Reflex defenses.
I also don't get why people think Slow is so great. I would never pick Ray of Frost over any of the other At Will single target powers. Slow is pretty lame unless combined with something like Difficult Terrain AND Prone (with just one of these, a Slowed creature can still sometimes charge, both are needed to prevent a charge).
Sure once in a while, a Wizard can hit a target with Slow (if he manages to hit vs. Fort) and then run like crazy (or try to prevent an opponent from running away). But, these situations are infrequent enough that the Wizard should have other options available and should not rely on RoF as a get away or prevent get away option. Especially for PCs like yours that have only two At Will powers.
The only time a Wizard should even consider Ray of Frost over Cloud of Daggers is when he has a low Wisdom and/or he or his team has some other synergies going on with the Ray of Frost (e.g. WinterTouch and Lasting Frost and/or other synergies).
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
I don't think your argument is without merit. CoD is *ok*, much better in your Human Wizard's book than a non-human.
But if you have 2 At-Wills and are stuck doing pure damage on both, which will be about 80% of your turns at low level, I don't see much point in being a controller. Not least for the non meta-gaming reason that its just plain boring.
A Wizard is pretty bad if he would be Ray of Frosting something within 4 spaces (charge distance) of his allies.
It's not good that it hits Fort, but you can still get Skirmishers, or Lurkers pretty reliably. There are also a lot of other affects, combat advantage, wand, etc that can give you a nice bonus to hit. If you can slow a creature and make it miss an attack, that is worth far more than an additional 2 damage.
Anyway, I'm glad something better came along. The Wizard's early options are less than impressive from a controller standpoint.
Last edited by Switchback; 3rd July 2008 at 03:02 AM..
Played a Human Wizard recently (Staff Wielder, Int 18 after human bonus, Con 14, Wis 14, Leather Armor Proficiency and Toughness feats [AC 17 and 29 HPs])
My at-wills:
Thunderwave: The entire reason I'm playing a BattleMage type of wizard. I really like the pushback ability.
Scorching Burst: Just to catch minions away... just in case.
Illusory Ambush: Attacks will, which is fine by me and the effect is handy.
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Ray of Frost & Cloud of Daggers are fun too. Magic Missile would be my last choice for single target at will, since it has no secondary effect.
(I'm actually considering retrying this concept again as a Dwarf... In which case, I think I'll go with Thunderwave and Illusory Ambush as my at-wills)
__________________ "You know that a conjurer gets no credit once he has explained his trick; and if I show you too much of my method of working, you will come to the conclusion that I am a very ordinary individual after all" - Sherlock Holmes to Watson
A wizard's at will choice are heavily affect by it's preferred target
vs Ref (MM,SBurst, CoD) : all but skirmisher, Artillery, and lurkers
vs For (RoF, Thunderwave): all but brutes and soldiers
vs Will (Illusionary Ambush): all but controllers and leader
By effect-
MM: anti Artillery
Scorching Burst: anti everything, man
CoD: anti minion
RoF: anti skirmisher and lurker
Thunderwave: anti brutes and soldiers
Illusionary Ambush: anti controllers, artillery, and leader
So if you take Thunderwave and Scorching ray, you will clobbering melee enemies. But Illusionary Ambush and Ray of Frost handles damage dealers.
I don't think your argument is without merit. CoD is *ok*, much better in your Human Wizard's book than a non-human.
Human or non-human makes no difference. Out of the core single target At Will Wizard attacks, Cloud of Daggers is the best of the bunch the majority of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchback
But if you have 2 At-Wills and are stuck doing pure damage on both, which will be about 80% of your turns at low level, I don't see much point in being a controller. Not least for the non meta-gaming reason that its just plain boring.
A Wizard is pretty bad if he would be Ray of Frosting something within 4 spaces (charge distance) of his allies.
I suspect that most of the time, a Wizard will not have a choice. If an enemy is within 10 squares of the Wizard, it is often probably within 4 squares of an ally of the Wizard.
PCs tend to not bunch up (it makes enemy AoEs easier and it puts squishy PCs too close to melee). With 5 PCs in a group, it is likely that most of the time, some ally of most PC Wizards (especially Defenders) will often be 4 to 8 squares away from the Wizard and closer to enemies. That's often how the game is played by many people. 10 squares attack range forces the Wizard to be in fairly close to his allies.
But, most players of Wizards will not usually have their Wizards right on the tail of their allies. It puts them too close to enemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchback
It's not good that it hits Fort, but you can still get Skirmishers, or Lurkers pretty reliably. There are also a lot of other affects, combat advantage, wand, etc that can give you a nice bonus to hit. If you can slow a creature and make it miss an attack, that is worth far more than an additional 2 damage.
The key word in your sentence here is "if".
40% chance by the PC to (sometimes) prevent a 50% chance by the monster to hit versus 100% chance to do 2 damage and an extra 10% chance to do initial damage.
So 1 time in 5 at best (and worse than that if the creature is within charge range or has a ranged attack), RoF MIGHT slow a creature where it actually affects a single attack in combat.
Remember, against Brutes it's often closer to 25% (or less) chance on average to prevent 50%.
What does the 2 At Will power Wizard with RoF do when he needs to attack a Brute near his allies? Mostly nothing if he cannot AoE him or does not have a different power that affects Reflex or Will.
Ditto for most Controllers, Minions and Soldiers as well. Their Forts are not nearly as high compared to their Reflex as Brutes, but it is still typically higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchback
Anyway, I'm glad something better came along. The Wizard's early options are less than impressive from a controller standpoint.
I view this opinion (no offense) as the typical player entitlement one. "Wizards are not good enough controllers, so I'm glad that they now have a better option."
Wizards are great controllers. My Wizard rocks and he does not have any non-core abilities. At Will abilities are not good controller options, Per Encounter and Daily abilities are the good controller options. And that is how it should be (IMO). If the At Will powers become too good for controlling, players of Wizards will use their Per Encounter and Dailies less often.
I also opine that the game will get more and more unbalanced (with regard to this and with regard to many areas of the game) as more and more splat book options become available. It is pretty much inevitable due to synergies. At least IMO.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Twin Strike is the best of the raw damage powers, so I set it above the rest (2 points higher than +Cha for Sly Flourish, for instance), but I don't understand how it's versatile. It also offers nothing except damage, however, so I'd have trouble making it a 10. I wasn't factoring in its minion killing goodness so I'll up it 1, but... After all, Righteous Brand seems like it's far better (I'll just hit and... okay, ally, lay on your daily with almost no chance to miss).
I really like Sacred Flame as well, but its secondary effects feel like they're not always useful and it does do slightly less damage than Lance of Faith. It's certainly less proactive.
I'll admit flat out that I don't expect a lot of powers to get up in the 9/10 range, because, well, it's hard to compare to Righteous Brand when you get right down to it.
One reason people cited for lowering Thunderwave is because it's scary for a wizard to get into close range - while that's certainly true, it may not be as true for other controllers (imagine a controller who worked like the infernal warlock, for instance), and there are certainly builds (Arcane Reach, WotST, multiclass, eternal seeker, wizard / Iron Vanguard, etc) that can make it extremely powerful.
From my perspective, I'd have a hard time making a spell that was more powerful than Thunderwave as an at-will option for any class, and I'd have serious second thoughts about making one that was equal, too. Hence, my initial 9. I did lower it to an 8 cause I'm clearly in the minority there
I stick by twin strike being versatile, It can be used at range or in melle, it can attack one or two targets, in most cases it has a better chance to at least be partialy effective than the careful attacks, and does phenomenal damage for an at will ability. So yes, in a word versatile, in another powerful. No other striker ability comes as close to the being the only attack you'll ever need. This is an encounter ability for most other classes in the heroic teir.
Thunderwave by comparison is very situational, it requires you to be in or near melle, which is a scary place for the people most likely to use this ability. It's a push so the mobs can only move away from you, which means you need positioning for it to be best use. The most obvious flaw is that its only useful when moving the mob is tactically advantageous, which is often the case but not always.
I could use twin strike every round and be effective, I could not do the same with thunder wave. Not saying it not cool but it certainly looses on the versatility front, and the damage front. Mind its really good at what it does which is get mobs away from the wizard so he can beat feet, and clever wizards will certainly think of many situational ways to use it, such as pushing mobs off cliffs or into traps or towards the defender.
Finally taking thunderwave for most wizards means not having an at will point attack, or giving up scorching burst, neither of which are sound tactical decisions. So I imagine most optimized wizards will skip thunderwave.
As for sacred flame its a one of a kind ability, no other At Wills extends your parties endurance. It's basically a proactive heal. Something along the lines of "I know you are going to get hit so here is 4 HP healed when they hit you". The effect it has on healing surges spent is noticeable, to give a ball park if your in nine rounds of combat and hit two thirds of the time, that two healing surges your party won't have to spend, or put another way two less healing words you'll have to use in said combat.
I'll post the otehr gems I've found later.
__________________ "Presence of mind is nothing but an increased capacity of dealing with the unexpected."
Carl von Clausewitz
I view this opinion (no offense) as the typical player entitlement one. "Wizards are not good enough controllers, so I'm glad that they now have a better option."
You are the one that said Ray of Frost sucked not me. If they made a power that is so obviously the worst choice and also the most 'controller' type option, something went wrong.
You are the one that said Ray of Frost sucked not me. If they made a power that is so obviously the worst choice and also the most 'controller' type option, something went wrong.
And you are the one who said that you would pick it if you were not using Illusory Ambush which I find incomprehensible.
And I agree, Ray of Frost is the most "perceived controller" type power, but it actually controls very little.
Because of the fact that none of the At Will Single Target powers really do a good job of controlling (including Illusory Ambush with a ~40% to ~60% chance of hitting to decrease an enemy attack by 10%, that means that it's control function actually works ~5% of the time, it's damage function works ~50% of the time), one has to assume that the intent of At Will Single Target Wizard powers is not true control. It's damage.
As such, since Ray of Frost hits the worst defense and does the least damage, it sucks for the job it is supposed to do (regardless of whether one considers that job to be damage or control).
It's real job is not control. That's at best a side effect and is mostly a misconception that some people have.
The job of many of the Per Encounter and Daily powers is control for a Wizard. Hands and Walls control. At Will powers damage (and yes, I know about the "damage is control" claims).
So yes, I find Illusory Ambush to also be a second rate At Will Single Target power. I just find it slightly more useful than Ray of Frost because it averages more damage (better chance to hit) and since I find Slow to be extremely suboptimal.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
I think you're underrating illusory foes a bit there - the penalty to attack is solid and combine with enfeebling strike and psychic lock and it puts a solo (the likely recipient of multiple at-wills for damage) in a pretty unenviable place.
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