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While I'm not a big fan of Ray of Frost, I still think that it is a great defensive power, but very specialiced.
The number one Enemy of a Wizard are Skirmishers, since they have big move and can easily ignore the defenders in the front ... they are simply made to harass the ranged characters. The thing is that Fortitude is not the strong point of a skirmisher and if they got hit the wizard can then simply move backward and is out of range for the skirmisher.
So it is great against skirmishers (and lurkers) but the least useful at-will against enemy already locked down by defenders.
Ray of Frost and Illusionary Ambush are the wizard's anti "nonmelee" powers. Ray of frost is for fast melee users and keeps them from running around slapping people. Illusionary Ambush makes controllers, artillery, and ranged leaders miss. From my experience, when the enemy group is not 75% big dumb brutes, minions, and soldiers; you'll find your self loving these two. Like elves and gnolls.
While I'm not a big fan of Ray of Frost, I still think that it is a great defensive power, but very specialiced.
The number one Enemy of a Wizard are Skirmishers, since they have big move and can easily ignore the defenders in the front ... they are simply made to harass the ranged characters. The thing is that Fortitude is not the strong point of a skirmisher and if they got hit the wizard can then simply move backward and is out of range for the skirmisher.
So it is great against skirmishers (and lurkers) but the least useful at-will against enemy already locked down by defenders.
1/ Skirmishers (and lurkers) have a worse Will than Fortitude.
2/ Slow is only useful for half the power's range (from 6-10 squares).
3/ Slow is only useful if there aren't any Defenders between you and it.
Now, if Ray of Frost let me Immobilize a single foe, it'd be worth targeting Fortitude. Immobilize is useful from 2-10 squares away. They could lower the damage and I'd still consider it useful.
Cheers, -- N
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
2/ Slow is only useful for half the power's range (from 6-10 squares).
Thats not true. After shooting Ray of Frost you still have a Move Action left, which give you more space than he could travel with two slow move Actions (besides Run, which would grant everyone Combat Advantage and -5 to attacks).
Thats not true. After shooting Ray of Frost you still have a Move Action left, which give you more space than he could travel with two slow move Actions (besides Run, which would grant everyone Combat Advantage and -5 to attacks).
If you think separating your Wizard from the rest of the party is a sound tactical move, go for it.
Next character, don't make a Wizard.
Cheers, -- N
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
I think you're underrating illusory foes a bit there - the penalty to attack is solid and combine with enfeebling strike and psychic lock and it puts a solo (the likely recipient of multiple at-wills for damage) in a pretty unenviable place.
I don't think so. The math speaks for itself, even against solos.
With a high Int 60% chance to hit (Will being an easy Defense) and a -2 for the opponents attacks (note: most foes gets one attack in a round, but there are some that get more), that's 6% of the times it is used that it actually affects combat in any way. If a Wizard uses it 4 times per solo encounter, the control aspect of this only affects an encounter one encounter in four and then only for a single attack.
The damage part of it affects ~60% of attacks, but then so again does the other (non-Scorching Ray) single target At Will powers.
Yes, it can combine with the abilities of other PCs. But, the control aspect of it rarely comes into play. And, it is only one attack that it stops every 4 encounters. The Wizard doing Scorching Burst on 3 minions can stop 6 or more attacks in 1 encounter using one power instead of using 16 powers. That's control. That's saving resources FOR the solo encounter coming up.
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Originally Posted by keterys
That said, I do mostly agree.
Yeah, it's hard to argue that Wizard At Will powers have a lot of control capability.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
If you think separating your Wizard from the rest of the party is a sound tactical move, go for it.
Next character, don't make a Wizard.
Cheers, -- N
To be fair, he was talking about getting away from the enemy, not the party. "Farther away from the guy chasing you" and "Same distance from (or closer to) the rest of the party" are not mutually exclusive.
Every time so far I've been worried about a character dying it has been a result of someone getting even just 7-8 squares away from the party and getting tied up by multiple monsters while the rest of the group had their own problems to deal with.
Getting isolated is way more scary in this edition than in previous ones.
I think you can only grade powers in context, rather than between classes. So with that in mind, here's my take.
*CLERIC*
7 / Lance of Faith
7 / Priest's Shield (Righteous Brand is useless without allies around, this isn't)
9 / Righteous Brand (but its really good WITH allies around)
8 / Sacred Flame (small damage decrease from LoF, but great side effect)
*FIGHTER*
8 / Cleave
8 / Reaping Strike (cleave and reaping strike make a great combo because they're each best against different things)
5 / Sure Strike (this isn't that bad at higher levels, but is never great)
7 / Tide of Iron
*PALADIN*
7 / Bolstering Strike (maintain a damage buffer of temp hp)
7 / Enfeebling Strike
6 / Holy Strike
8 / Valiant Strike (bonus to hit! bonus to hit!)
*RANGER*
2 / Careful Strike (sucks because twin strike is better)
5 / Hit and Run (not bad but nimble strike is better)
8 / Nimble Strike (guarantees mobility, forever, with an at will)
9 / Twin Strike
*ROGUE*
8 / Deft Strike (its like tumble, at will. shift out of reach, then deft strike back to your chosen square)
7 / Piercing Strike
7 / Riposte Strike (a good standby for str rogues)
7 / Sly Flourish (a good standby for cha rogues)
*WARLOCK*
8 / Dire Radiance (can be used to control movement. hit with it, then position yourself to obstruct)
6 / Eldritch Blast
8 / Eyebite
7 / Hellish Rebuke
*WARLORD*
6 / Commander's Strike
6 / Furious Smash
6 / Viper's Strike
6 / Wolf Pack Tactics (none of these leap out at me, all are ok though)
*WIZARD*
7 / Cloud of Daggers (secretly, this just does 1d6+int+wis, with wis on a miss, the rest of the text rarely comes up)
7 / Magic Missile (only good for range, but not bad if paired with scorching burst since you need one single target at will)
7 / Ray of Frost (good if you're a cold focused caster with the right feats)
9 / Scorching Burst (the best of the best, AoE on tap)
7 / Thunderwave (good, but not great, the need for a close blast can be better filled with encounter powers)
7 / Illusionary Foes
I also don't get why people think Slow is so great. I would never pick Ray of Frost over any of the other At Will single target powers. Slow is pretty lame unless combined with something like Difficult Terrain AND Prone (with just one of these, a Slowed creature can still sometimes charge, both are needed to prevent a charge). [quote]
I talked to 3 CSR for the fun of it asking how slow is supposed to work. 2 of the 3 said it allows a move of up to 2 and no more each ROUND. Period. double moving for 4 or running being the key there.
The 2nd one said it was as you mentioned (can double move for 4). I think the greater then 2 is taken from the part where if your slowed while moving, if you've moved more then 2 stop.
In anycase, I've used the majority opinion on slow (max of 2 move, period, save for forced movement) and it has found new and often painful respect.
It is not the best thing since sliced bread for sure. But with a max 2 move, it can hold off some (especially skirmishers and lurkers) monsters for 1-2 more rounds.
I suggest ya try this ruling and you too will like the effect more.
I don't think so. The math speaks for itself, even against solos.
O-kay... let's examine that math then.
Flipping through my Monster Manual, from the beginning, looking for Solos.
In each case, I'm going to assume that you've exhausted any encounter/daily abilities you're going to use, and you're not able to hit more than one target with an area (and may possibly not want to use an area at all due to party positioning)
Tarrasque:
You're extremely likely to hit (Its Will is only +2 over its level), probably something like a 95% hit rate. Bit of an aberration for this, but it's the first one. It's late in the comat so it is frenzy-ing or trampling every round, so let's say it gets 3 attacks for, say, 25 average damage each. It's at level + 3 or level + 4 to hit vs. Reflex or AC respectively. Let's call it a 50% chance to hit, that's not that impressive but it gets to hit the non-defender a lot.
So, 75 damage * .5 = 37.5 per round average. -2 to hit drops that average to 30, a 20% drop in effective damage. That's certainly solid. So anyhow that's -19% damage from the -2 attack, which is slightly over 1/3 of the weaken effect. Definitely weak but still probably stronger than doing a couple more damage.
Beholder is next... let's see, its Will is actually respectable (better than the Tarrasque's, even 11 levels lower...) and it gets, say, 3 eye ray attacks from its aura, 2 central eye attacks from minors, and 2 eye ray attacks from a standard. Every 6 rounds it gets another 2 eye rays from frenzy, but I'll call that a wash with not doing some central eye rays. Its attacks are only +3, but vs a non-AC defense so we'll stick with the 50% hit rate for now. Some of these rays are not particularly threatening, but I'd say that restrain, unconscious, petrify, death, disintegrate, daze etc are all pretty serious effects. So, 40% of the time hitting and, say, half the time catching something you actually care about is really quite respectable in a group of 5 down to its at-wills. Better than almost any of the other options, and that's even on a high Will monster. Honestly, if just once it prevents someone from being slept before its turn (saving them from a disintegrate crit) or prevents a petrification or death save failure just once... it's really worthwhile. Of course, you could argue that the damage from Cloud of Daggers might have killed the beholder a round sooner, too (entirely possible).
Dracolich next (and last) - will is +12, so that's back to your 60% default. It has an okay bite, nasty breath weapon and the mesmerizing glare is just completely rude. So Bite is +5 vs AC, so still 50% and call it 20 damage (averaging in some stunned hits). The breath weapon is once every 3 rounds, is +3 vs Ref (so still 50%), does 16 and stun, 8 and no stun on miss, hitting say 3 people. Mesmerizing Glare will hit, say, 1 person in the blast 3 (at least once people realize) and is +2 vs. Will for stun. So 45% chance, I guess (it's odd how all the melee classes can have a reason to have a decent Will defense via stat upgrade, kinda nice change). Okay, 60% chance to reduce those to 40%, 40%, 35%... which results in about 4.8 damage less per bite, 8.6 less per breath and instead of... 2.85 people stunned per 3 turns, it'll be 2.49 people stunned. So ~6 less damage taken per round and, say, 3 less people being stunned over the course of the combat... which is worth more damage done and less damage taken.
Also factor in psychic lock, but that's a little complex since it's only one attack roll.
That said, one other thing that reducing hit gives you is that it lets you 'keep up' more easily, if you've got regeneration, temp hp generation, or status effect problems, neutralizing your enemy's action is very valuable for 'locking in' a win.
I'm not saying it's amazing, just that I think you were underrating it. I'm willing to concede I may have been overrating it though, given the above numbers.
To be fair, he was talking about getting away from the enemy, not the party. "Farther away from the guy chasing you" and "Same distance from (or closer to) the rest of the party" are not mutually exclusive.
It is if you rely on it as a strategy for dealing with skirmishers & lurkers.
Basically:
- If you're not surrounded, there's at least one "front line", where your friends are on one side and you are on the other.
- If your friends are not moving, and you are being chased, you will be moving away from them at some point.
Cheers, -- N
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
*FIGHTER*
5 / Sure Strike (this isn't that bad at higher levels, but is never great)
*RANGER*
2 / Careful Strike (sucks because twin strike is better)
Shouldn't Careful Strike not decrease because Twin Strike is better... just Twin Strike should be a lot better? That is, I don't think we should decrease the scores of any powers here when Martial Power (or DDI, or whatever) releases new powers. Unless the entire scale has to change because they've released a lot of broken stuff... but that's an 'And everything moves down 1' type maneuver.
Though I'm tempted to just declare Careful Strike 'N/A', as well. It's bad, but it's mostly that Twin Strike is, frankly, excessively good.
I suspect Sure Strike should be slightly better for a fighter since at least you can use it for heavy blade opportunity for stopping people, and for killing minions. There is at least a non-zero use. I should probably up it 1.
Quote:
*WARLOCK*
8 / Dire Radiance (can be used to control movement. hit with it, then position yourself to obstruct)
7 / Hellish Rebuke
Or the creature can just take the damage, or have already taken the damage from hellish rebuke due to ongoing damage, zones, allies, etc. That said, I'm wondering if I should bump my own rating of Dire Radiance purely for its radiant damage.
I talked to 3 CSR for the fun of it asking how slow is supposed to work. 2 of the 3 said it allows a move of up to 2 and no more each ROUND. Period. double moving for 4 or running being the key there.
Wow. The PH is more clear about this than I expected. Here is the wording, P.277
Quote:
Slow: Your speed becomes 2. This speed applies to all your movement modes, but it does not apply to teleportaton or to a pull, a push, or a slide. You can't increase your speed above 2, and your speed doesn't increase if it was lower than 2. If your slowed while moving, stop moving if you have already moved 2 or more squares.
What would 'all your movement modes' be if not things like charging, running, double moves. Those are all the different movement modes I would think, the speed of 2 applies to all of them. It can't be increased.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarinsDad
So yes, I find Illusory Ambush to also be a second rate At Will Single Target power. I just find it slightly more useful than Ray of Frost because it averages more damage (better chance to hit) and since I find Slow to be extremely suboptimal.
I think you overvalue 2 damage (from CoD, unless yours does more). But each party is different. I have a party of 4 with 2 strikers and they can put out so much more DPR than me each round to the point I would far rather have the Illusory Ambush +2/3 bonus to hitting Will for most creatures (especially brutes, solo's, soldiers, elites) and helping my defender out by slapping the -2 attack penalty.
Quote:
The job of many of the Per Encounter and Daily powers is control for a Wizard. Hands and Walls control. At Will powers damage (and yes, I know about the "damage is control" claims).
This is why I said the low level control options were less than impressive. Does a striker only strike with his dailies and encounters? No, things like Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, let them do their job every round. Does a defender not defend with his AT-Wills? A class called a controller that uses At-Wills up to around 80% of the time should not be only able to control well on Encounter's and Dailies.
Last edited by Switchback; 3rd July 2008 at 09:02 PM..
What would 'all your movement modes' be if not things like charging, running, double moves. Those are all the different movement modes I would think, the speed of 2 applies to all of them. It can't be increased.
Movement modes refer to swim, climb, burrow, fly, etc. I don't like it either, but unfortunately a slow target is not prevented from charging, running, or shifting. A Slowed Kobold Dragonshield can run 4, shift 1, and charge 2 for a total of 7 squares, and make an attack at -4 (-5 from run, +1 from charge).
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I talked to 3 CSR for the fun of it asking how slow is supposed to work. 2 of the 3 said it allows a move of up to 2 and no more each ROUND. Period. double moving for 4 or running being the key there.
The 2nd one said it was as you mentioned (can double move for 4). I think the greater then 2 is taken from the part where if your slowed while moving, if you've moved more then 2 stop.
In anycase, I've used the majority opinion on slow (max of 2 move, period, save for forced movement) and it has found new and often painful respect.
It is not the best thing since sliced bread for sure. But with a max 2 move, it can hold off some (especially skirmishers and lurkers) monsters for 1-2 more rounds.
I suggest ya try this ruling and you too will like the effect more.
Except that this "ruling" is not what the Slow rule states. The Slow rule states a Speed of 2. The action rules state three actions per round, two of which can be Move Actions, one of those can be a Charge (2 minimum move needed for a Charge). Slow does not limit a PC to one action. It limits Speed.
Sure, if one changes the rules from what is written, Slow can be made more potent. No doubt about it.
I'm just going by what is written in the rules. If they errata it, I would be surprised since regardless of whom you talked with, it really does appear that the designer intent of Slow is to do exactly what is written. There does not appear to be any contrary rules in the PHB.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
As such, since Ray of Frost hits the worst defense and does the least damage, it sucks for the job it is supposed to do (regardless of whether one considers that job to be damage or control).
I don't know if I should be amused or sad that no one pointed out that slow prevents a monster from running AWAY from you. I guess it's usefulness depends on how stupid your DM plays the opponents in your campaign.
I don't know if I should be amused or sad that no one pointed out that slow prevents a monster from running AWAY from you. I guess it's usefulness depends on how stupid your DM plays the opponents in your campaign.
This is actually the *only* purpose I've seen RoF being used for. But with all the other nicer options, for any non-human, RoF is not likely to be a top two pick.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Movement modes refer to swim, climb, burrow, fly, etc. I don't like it either, but unfortunately a slow target is not prevented from charging, running, or shifting. A Slowed Kobold Dragonshield can run 4, shift 1, and charge 2 for a total of 7 squares, and make an attack at -4 (-5 from run, +1 from charge).
Hmm yes. They might have wanted to say "Move action" then in the descriptor if they meant to limit all options to 2 squares. The CSR answers create some confusion. Even so, getting certain monsters to charge attack vs more powerful powers has its uses.
The ideal with RoF is of course to go first, like with most controller options, and then you can use it for its fullest effect to steal one of their turns.
I think you overvalue 2 damage (from CoD, unless yours does more). But each party is different. I have a party of 4 with 2 strikers and they can put out so much more DPR than me each round to the point I would far rather have the Illusory Ambush +2/3 bonus to hitting Will for most creatures (especially brutes, solo's, soldiers, elites) and helping my defender out by slapping the -2 attack penalty.
The chances to hit on average for Reflex Defenses are nearly identical with Will Defenses (not on any given creature, but overall throughout the MM).
I consider 2 auto-damage on 16 attacks for 32 total points of damage (this happens regardless of hit or miss) to be a lot more useful than stopping 1 opponent from attacking back once in 16 of his attacks (on rounds he is attacked by Illusory Ambush), especially considering that CoD will also often drop multiple attacks by auto-dropping minions.
A PC doing 32 extra points of damage (and possibly killing multiple minions which stops a lot of damage back) versus him stopping one enemy from doing 10 points back once in 16 counterattacks.
It doesn't take much to realize which one has a LOT more utility (and bump Wis up to 16 or 18 and it becomes moreso).
The only reason Illusory Ambush is not totally lame like Ray of Frost is that it does more average damage. It is only partially lame compared to Magic Missile and even moreso to Cloud of Daggers.
Does the math really not mean anything to people?
4E has very few ways to incapacitate opponents. Damage is the most common one. Anything that increases damage decreases the number of enemy attacks per encounter and decreases the number of resources required on a given encounter.
PS. My Wizard PC has Int 20 and Wis 12 for only one point of damage and I still would not take Illusory Ambush because 16 points of damage in 16 attacks (plus minion killing) is vastly preferable to stopping one counterattack one time in 16. Math 101. It's beyond a no brainer for Wizards with Wis 14 or higher. Why gimp yourself?
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
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