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I think letter grades would be more useful than numeric ones (A,B,C,D,F), with pluses or minuses added for more subtle gradation. You could also put build notes in (A+ for tactical warlord, B for Inspiring).
Str based clerics are suboptimal, for many of the same reasons i said righteous brand is far from a ten. Almost all attacks are vs. AC, and almost all attacks require the user to be in melle. So a str based cleric has a harder time hitting compared to a wisdom based cleric, and is in the most dangerous position on the battle field, in melle with the mobs. Seems like a poor trade for abilities that are arguably worse than their wisdom based equivalents. However Str v Wis clerics is a debate for a diffrent thread.
Melee clerics play as strong as laser clerics, and multi-class far better. Even mixed-mode clerics -- e.g. using Longtooth Shifter -- are validated by Warpriest.
If you think Weapon vs. AC is harder than Implement vs. Reflex, you don't understand the effect of the weapon proficiency bonus rule.
Cheers, -- N
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In all fairnesss, there is a bit of a defense lag at the Paragon levels. Most monsters are going to have Ref defenses from 2-3 lower than their ACs, but occasionally the gap can be as high as 6.
Because of the fact that none of the At Will Single Target powers really do a good job of controlling (including Illusory Ambush with a ~40% to ~60% chance of hitting to decrease an enemy attack by 10%, that means that it's control function actually works ~5% of the time, it's damage function works ~50% of the time), one has to assume that the intent of At Will Single Target Wizard powers is not true control. It's damage.
Numbers can be used in many ways. The value of Illusory Ambush really depends on two things - your chance to hit the target, and the target's chance to hit you. It's not a static chance.
For example, if you are running a maxed-out wizard (20 Int to begin, stat bumps at every opportunity, best possible implement for your level), you should have a pretty good chance to hit...and it only gets better if you target a foe who has Will as their weak defense. A 1st level wizard maxed on attack bonus can hit the typical brute (Will 11) 75% of the time. With Leather Armor proficiency, the wizard can have a 17 AC, or 18 if a Staff Wizard. That means the typical brute can hit the wizard roughly 45% of the time (+5 if fire beetle, +6 if dire rat), which reduces to 35% if the Illusory Ambush hits
That means the effect of the -2 from Illusory Ambush is roughly equivalent to a 16% reduction to damage taken (22% reduction in average damage times 75% chance that Illusory Attack hits), assuming you're only being attacked by one foe. Hopefully, if the defenders are doing their job, the wizard only has to contend with one foe getting past them.
Moving to the Paragon tier at 11th level, there are two Elite Brutes listed for that level in the MM - the Dire Bear (+15 attack, Will 18) and the Ogre Warhulk (+14 attack, Will 21). The wizard can take the Psychic Lock feat at this point, increasing the penalty from Illusory Ambush to -4. A +3 implement is a 11th level magic item (which can be made with Enchant Magic Item), and the wizard should have a 23 Int at this point, for a total attack bonus of +14. That's a 85% chance to hit the Dire Bear, and a 70% chance to hit the Ogre Warhulk. Averaging it out between the two still works out to roughly 75%.
At this point, the wizard's AC should be increased by +6 from 1st level (+5 level mod, +1 from Int increase), for a total AC of 23 or 24. Because the foes are Elite, they have an easier time of hitting - roughly 60%. However, with Psychic Lock, that -4 to hit reduces the chance from 60% to 40%, or a 33% reduction in average damage taken. With the 75% hit chance, that works out to a 25% overall reduction in the damage taken.
Let's go all the way to the endgame - an Ancient Red Dragon (level 30 Solo Soldier) or the Tarrasque (level 30 Solo Brute). The wizard should have a +30 to hit at this point (+9 from Int, +6 from implement, +15 from level). The Tarrasque only has a 32 Will...that's a 95% chance to hit! The Ancient Red Dragon is tougher with a 42 Will...that's only a 45% chance to hit (Soldiers have high defenses). The reduction to attacks is either -2 or -4...the Ancient Red Dragon can attack multiple times per round, and Psychic Lock only affects the first attack.
The wizard's AC is a bit more variable, here - a Wizard of the Spiral Tower with a decent Str and Con can have a light (or even heavy) shield at this point, plus Shield (or Armor) Specialization. But even a default wizard in leather armor will have a 44 AC (+10 from +6 starleather armor, +9 from Int, +15 from level). The ancient red has a +37 attack, while the Tarrasque has a +34 attack. That's anywhere from a 55% to a 70% chance to hit. Given other possible increases to AC, I'll average that out at 60%. Also, given the multiple attacks of the dragon, I'll only count half of the effect of the Psychic Lock feat for it, making it a -3.
So, with a 95% chance to reduce the average hit chance of the Tarrasque from 60% to 40%, that works out to roughly a 28% reduction in average damage taken. Even with the 45% chance to hit the Ancient Red Dragon and reduce its hit chance from 60% to 45%, that's a 11% reduction. The numbers get better if your defenders are marking the solo (either enforcing a penalty to hit or drawing its attacks to their higher AC). Still think the control aspect of Illusory Ambush is useless?
Heck, I won't even go into the ultra-AC build for mages (50 AC at level 30) that would change the numbers above to show a nearly 50% reduction in average damage for using Illusory Ambush against the Tarrasque.
Now, granted, not all monsters are weak versus Will. But that's why wizards have attacks that target a variety of defenses, with a variety of status effects.
Last edited by Fedifensor; 4th July 2008 at 05:34 PM..
Why did you remove the number grades? I want them back! I can think about numbers in a much more linear fashion. Now it looks like everything got A's and B's so we can feel good about ourselves. Always hated letter grades... Sorry, nothing personal. But in general, if you are going to grade things, you need to give yourself room for the scale. Letters just don't provide enough of a spread for a good comparison.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I have the numbers saved, actually, depending on how folks feel
I'll let anyone else weigh in, but I'll happily switch back by end of day if no one objects. I do think I'll keep the scale for #s. The main difference between a letter grade and a number grade is that the number implies you can categorically score things (Well, +5 range is +.5 and then it's radiant for another +.5, and it's 2d8 so that's +1 over 1d8, etc), while the letter implies it's a fuzzier scale.
I have the numbers saved, actually, depending on how folks feel
I'll let anyone else weigh in, but I'll happily switch back by end of day if no one objects. I do think I'll keep the scale for #s. The main difference between a letter grade and a number grade is that the number implies you can categorically score things (Well, +5 range is +.5 and then it's radiant for another +.5, and it's 2d8 so that's +1 over 1d8, etc), while the letter implies it's a fuzzier scale.
I actually prefer the letter scale, because in the end, this is a fuzzy rating system. With the numbers, people get too hung up on the exact score (is it a 7? 7.5? 7.3702?). The letter grade is easy, and intuitive. Everyone remembers it from grade school, and I expect less arguments will occur over an 'A' than a '9'.
That said, the letter system needs a bit of adjusting. Twin Strike is a legal power - rate it, and don't dodge things by giving it an **. I think it should be a simple A+...and probably the only A+.
In addition, your letter system has far too many A's and B's. There's only two C's, and not a single D. You also have 3 "A+" powers (4 if you count Twin Strike). You need to scale things so the powers are spread out, instead of having 90% of them shoved into the A and B area.
Numbers can be used in many ways. The value of Illusory Ambush really depends on two things - your chance to hit the target, and the target's chance to hit you. It's not a static chance.
Yes, numbers can easily be skewed as you showed. That's why I talk about average foes and not specific groups. If one uses Illusory Ambush versus Brutes in their examples like you did, one can misrepresent Illusory Ambush to make it look real good.
Your Tarrasque example is a bit of a joke. Sure, the Wizard can easily give the Tarrasque a -2 to hit. But he would NEVER EVER do that until late in the combat. First off, he should not readily know that he has a 95% chance to hit the Tarrasque and only a 45% chance to hit the Ancient Red Dragon.
Secondly, he would throw most of his Per Encounter and Daily powers at the Tarrasque and only when he was done doing that would he ever consider using Illusory Ambush.
And, the Tarrasque can give the Wizard a -5 to AC. Suddenly, the Tarrasque is +3 to hit the Wizard. And, the Tarrasque can walk right through the Defender's square in order to get to the Wizard (and it is unlikely that the Wizard could ever Fly out of reach due to Earthbinding). Or, the Tarrasque could attack the Wizard with a Tail Slap and it's +32 to hit Fort attack -2 due to Illusory Damage will still hit the super AC super Int Wizard ~80+% of the time (the Wizard cannot maintain great Defenses across the board).
Yup, the -2 is very helpful in this scenario. This scenario.
But, these are not average encounters. For the 1 in 5 encounters where Illusory Ambush is slightly better (much better chance to hit, but still less damage and still infrequent chance to protect the party with the -2 to attacks boon), there are 4 encounters (and especially the 1 minion encounter) where Cloud of Daggers wipes the floor with Illusory Ambush. The reason is that the chance to hit is about the same between the two in these majority cases, but Cloud of Daggers does more damage. Dead foes do not need a 1 in 16 chance of putting a -2 to hit on them.
Sorry, but offense trumps defense in 4E for the most part. It's all about economy of actions. It's often better to kill 1 foe than it is to damage or hinder 3 foes (unless one can hinder them to the point that they cannot do counterattack actions).
The main advantage that PCs have over NPCs is that when NPCs gang up on a single PC, that PC can be healed and can still fight. When PCs gang up on a single NPC, it typically cannot be healed and eventually just falls. So, NPCs rarely decrease the number of PCs they are fighting from round to round whereas PCs often decrease the number of NPCs they are fighting from round to round.
It's all about economy of actions.
When NPCs do manage to decrease the number of PCs they are fighting from round to round, that's typically when TPKs (or semi-TPKs if some PCs run away) occur.
One PC falling is not often that big of a deal, but when 2 or 3 fall, things can turn real bad for the PCs real quick. Just like it does once most of the NPCs fall in the opposite direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedifensor
Still think the control aspect of Illusory Ambush is useless?
I did not say that Illusory Ambush was useless. I said it was on average suboptimal. Same for Ray of Frost (which is even more on average suboptimal than Illusory Ambush).
There are always going to be scenarios where one At Will power is preferable to any other. Magic Missile wipes the floor up on all of the other At Wills if the Wizard stays 11+ squares away from his foes (at least from the POV of the Wizard, maybe not from the POV of the entire party).
One thing people forget is that in order to get to super PCs and wipe out the Tarrasque, the PCs have to do a few things first:
1) Wipe out ~290 encounters before getting to 30th level, the vast majority of these where Cloud of Daggers helps combat more than either Ray of Frost or Illusory Ambush.
2) Somehow survive all of these encounters (i.e. no TPKs). For the 20 Int Wizard, sure, he is throwing out strong attacks (I am playing a 20 Int Wizard, so I know, 20 Int does >20% more damage than 18 Int). It also means that at least one and possibly two of the Wizard's other Defenses are suboptimal (the Wizard can only bump 2 stats up on most bump up levels and there are a lot of ability score prerequisites to craft a Super Wizard). For example, the mega-AC 50 Wizard that you are talking about has to give something up in order to get a Heavy Shield and Hide Armor. Str and Con do not grow on trees.
3) The PCs have to have all of these magical items that people doing comparisons so easily hand out. But, if you check the DMG magic item hand out system, this is not the case. A party of 5 just made level 30 this morning PCs if given the recommended items (over many levels) would each have:
2 level 30 items, 1 level 29 item, 1 level 28 item, 1 level 27 item, 1 level 26 item, etc. (assuming they use most of their cash to craft/purchase items as well, otherwise they would have 0.8 level 29, 28, 27 etc. items each).
Will a level 29 Wizard always have +6 Starleather armor, or might he have +6 Feyleather armor? Or, might he have +5 Feyleather armor because he has not yet been able to find Starleather and this armor is the best he had 3 levels ago?
Giving PCs the best equipment and the best feats and the best stats does not make for a sound POV.
That might happen is some games, but I suspect that most DMs do not hand out the optimal items at every single level. Even following the DMG guidelines does not result in optimal items all of the time.
Not all players will be playing mega-PCs. Sure, they will pick good items and feats and ability scores, but they won't be optimized across the board. Want a high Int Wizard, one gives up Fort Defense. Want a high AC Wizard, one gives up Wisdom or Int. Pros and Cons.
Want Illusory Ambush to wipe out weak Will opponents? Fine. You don't get to wipe out quite as many Minions or Leaders or Elites as quickly.
Again, Pros and Cons.
This is why it is always better to talk about average scenarios when discussing powers. Any given power can shine in any given scenario, but it might be drastically suboptimal to another power on average.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Last edited by KarinsDad; 4th July 2008 at 07:27 PM..
Twin Strike is obviously a legal power. It's just also far better than any other damaging power, and by enough of a measure that it's difficult for me to rate things in the same 'letter' area... but by the grading system the baseline I established was a B. I don't want the baseline to be a C, because that implies any power that's worse (a D) is actually is mediocre, instead of adequate. B is the 'grade' that a power should aspire for, from a design perspective, as far as I can tell, and the lion's share of well-designed powers should be Bs.
Maybe my understanding of grading is flawed, though.
C - Pass. Adequate.
D - Mediocre. Fails in some cases, borderline passes in others.
Right?
If Twin Strike didn't exist and someone posted a fighter power that let them swing twice but lose Str to the damage, it would be called out as ridiculous. Though, I think the better example would be eldritch blasting twice. There is a precedent for double hitting powers, but they're all pretty restrictive - Hellish Rebuke, Dire Radiance, and Riposte Strike.
Weirdly, it's less of a problem if you restrict it to just dual wield but not bows. At least that's some restriction on its use.
Last edited by keterys; 4th July 2008 at 07:41 PM..
Shouldn't Careful Strike not decrease because Twin Strike is better... just Twin Strike should be a lot better? That is, I don't think we should decrease the scores of any powers here when Martial Power (or DDI, or whatever) releases new powers. Unless the entire scale has to change because they've released a lot of broken stuff... but that's an 'And everything moves down 1' type maneuver.
I rated it low because its in direct competition with twin strike. Both accomplish the same thing. If you have one, there's no need to have the other. In a way, I could have ranked Careful Strike at a zero- the fact that twin strike exists means that careful strike need not exist.
But that doesn't change things, Cadfan. An infinite number of powers can be added later. If Martial Power adds a fighter 'Rapid Swing' ability that works like TWS, we shouldn't decrease all of the powers already out.
That said, the letter scale for just failing things works out too
Why do so many people think righteous brand is a good cleric power?
Strength based clerics are not suboptimal. Running a cleric with a starting strength of 18 is entirely reasonable. Use a feat for proficiency with a bastard sword, and you've got a +7 attack bonus at level 1. Hitting with Righteous Brand gives an ally a +4 to hit. This is absolutely enormous, and just gets better as you level up and your strength improves.
Dragonborn Cleric, starting stats
Str 16+2=18
Con 13
Dex 10
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 12+2=14
That's an entirely viable character, using a non-optimized default array.
But that doesn't change things, Cadfan. An infinite number of powers can be added later. If Martial Power adds a fighter 'Rapid Swing' ability that works like TWS, we shouldn't decrease all of the powers already out.
That said, the letter scale for just failing things works out too
It works well enough for me. If we have Power A (int v reflex, 1d6+int damage) and power B (int v reflex, 1d8+int damage), and there are no other differences between the powers, the first one probably deserves a zero. Its grade only makes sense in the context of the other powers available to a class. In this case, the other powers available to the class include one which is strictly superior. So, the first one might as well not exist.
In this case, the two ranger powers accomplish the same task. One is better than the others at all times except
1. Incredibly, insanely high armor class, and
2. When you only have one arrow.
So, the lesser power is very, very close to worthless in context.
*WIZARD*
B+ / Cloud of Daggers
B- / Magic Missile
B- / Ray of Frost
A / Scorching Burst
A / Thunderwave
B+ / Illusionary Foes
My ratings for these (not compared to other class At Will powers):
A / Cloud of Daggers
B+ / Magic Missile
C- / Ray of Frost (Fort save, lowest damage, Slow rarely affects combat, yikes!)
B- / Illusory Ambush (sorry, but if taking only one single target At Will, Magic Missile affects combat more overall by doing more extra damage than IA saves with its -2)
By definition, most Wizards should have an area of effect At Will power. So, these powers have a slightly higher rating just because one of them is practically required. I really cannot see a real helpful Wizard without an At Will AoE except possibly at high level where he has so many Per Encounter (and Daily) area powers that he does not need an At Will one (and even this does not sound like a real strong strategy).
A+ / Scorching Burst
A- / Thunderwave
I use Scorching Burst a lot, probably close to 50% of the time. In 12 encounters, I have used Thunderwave in two rounds (once to great effect saving a fellow PC from a swarm but that required using it twice due to it missing on the first try and with an action point succeeding on the second try, once to no effect trying to move a Dragon right next to my PC).
For my human PC Wizard, I took Cloud of Daggers, Scorching Burst, and Thunderwave.
I could see taking Illusory Ambush, but only as a Human Wizard with Scorching Burst and Cloud of Daggers as the other two At Wills. But if only taking one At Will single target power, Illusory Ambush is not as good as Cloud of Daggers or Magic Missile (on average). It sounds better than it actually is.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
No, it'd be Starleather. They don't make +6 Feyleather But, yeah, he might have +5 feyleather.
Thanks. Since I'm not DMing (and since we are still level 2 PCs), I did not carefully read the magic armor rules which indicate that given bonus items automatically also give masterwork qualities.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
But, yeah, he might have +5 feyleather.
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