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I don't think so, but one of my players does (see quote below):
"If Tom the rogue deals cold damage (Frost weapons have an at will ability that allows you to convert all damage dealt by the weapon to cold and grants the attack the cold descriptor) to a creature with cold vulnerability (Lasting Frost - Any target you hit with a power that has the cold keyword gains vulnerable cold 5 until the end of your next turn.) with any of his powers the target grants her combat advantage (Wintertouched - When attacking a creature that is vulnerable to cold, you gain combat advantage when you use a power that has the cold keyword) until the end of her next turn."
It doesn't seem like that big of an advantage to me. I personally would let that player do this.
It might seem like a big deal, but an extra D6/d8 damage in 4E isn't realy that big of a deal.
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Unfortunately, this is a sticking point. Even though you are doing 'cold' damage, you aren't using a power with the 'cold' keyword.
It looks like there will be weapon/cold attacks to use later on (from the swordmage i think) that would be suitable for this, either for better swordmagery or as a multiclass option.
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It doesn't seem like that big of an advantage to me. I personally would let that player do this.
It might seem like a big deal, but an extra D6/d8 damage in 4E isn't realy that big of a deal.
We're talking about a 13th level rogue with the Backstabber feat, so an extra 3d8 every round because of some suspect combo between a frost weapon and two feats a rogue was never meant to take (Lasting Frost and Winter Touched) is a big deal to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badgerish
Unfortunately, this is a sticking point. Even though you are doing 'cold' damage, you aren't using a power with the 'cold' keyword.
Thank you, now I have RAW as well as RAI.
The attack deals Cold Energy Damage (descriptor), but does not gain the Cold Key-Word.
Last edited by Steely Dan; 2nd July 2008 at 04:18 PM..
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
None of the rogue powers have the cold keyword, so the combo is a no go. Now if he had a magic weapon which had its own attack power with the cold keyword, then the rogue in question could pull this off.
Unfortunately, this is a sticking point. Even though you are doing 'cold' damage, you aren't using a power with the 'cold' keyword.
It looks like there will be weapon/cold attacks to use later on (from the swordmage i think) that would be suitable for this, either for better swordmagery or as a multiclass option.
Pg 226 of the PHB
His class powers will gain the magic item's power's keywords. Thus, using the frost weapon with a power, the power will inherit the cold keyword.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan
The attack deals Cold Energy Damage (descriptor), but does not gain the Cold Key-Word.
It does gain the Cold Keyword, as per pg 226 of the PHB.
PHB p226.
Use a frost weapon, and every attack you make with the weapon has the cold keyword. If the power is 'on', your damage is only cold. If the power is 'off', your damage is partly cold.
It's RAW, and unambiguous, but personally I'm hoping that rule gets changed via errata.
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PHB p226.
Use a frost weapon, and every attack you make with the weapon has the cold keyword. If the power is 'on', your damage is only cold. If the power is 'off', your damage is partly cold.
It's RAW, and unambiguous, but personally I'm hoping that rule gets changed via errata.
The only part that's ambiguous is whether or not the power needs to be 'on' to get the benefit. And that's mostly a point of contention applicable for weapons that can't be turned 'on.' So is practically moot for frost/flaming weapons.
Steely Dan, your player is correct, magic weapons impart keywords to the powers in which they are used with IF that power has the Weapon Keyword. Let's take a look at a Frost Weapon, normally it is only a +x weapon, when the At-Will ability is triggered it imparts the Cold keyword to any power and ALL damage becomes cold damage from the power. When the Daily power is used it also imparts the Cold keyword to the weapon, but it adds xd8 of cold damage (All other damage remains the original damage type(s)) and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn. (Now according to the example on PHB 226 the weapon would always have Cold as keyword whether or not the at-will is used or not, but I think the example is wrong based upon RAW)
PHB 226:
Quote:
Like racial powers and class powers, magic item powers often have keywords that indicate their damage or effect types. When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the item's power and the other power all apply.
Actually, I think pure RAW is ambiguous, since the item section merely says "all keywords apply", whereas the Wintertouched/Lasting Frost feats say "when you use a power that has the cold keyword". Technically it doesn't say that the power you use gains the cold keyword, just that the keyword applies.
But I believe custserve has ruled that this does work. So there you go. But I agree that it's probably not that overpowered - a paragon-level rogue should already have about six different ways of getting CA anytime they want anyway. The sneak attack bonus damage seems large, but keep in mind rogues are usually rolling smaller weapon/spell damage die (1d4 or 1d6, usually) than rangers/warlocks (who can easily get 1d10).
And I'm not sure that the rogue was never meant to take the feats. I mean, the designers have to know that anyone playing a rogue is going to seriously look at any feat that mentions combat advantage.
Thanks for all the input/feedback, people, I'll check out everything in hardcopy (always helps me) when I get home, and then I'll have a better bead on the sitch.
Thanks for all the input/feedback, people, I'll check out everything in hardcopy (always helps me) when I get home, and then I'll have a better bead on the sitch.
There is something else that you should know about this combination.
It does not automatically give the Rogue Combat Advantage. WinterTouch (combined with Lasting Frost) only gives Combat Advantage the second time an opponent is hit within 1.5 rounds.
So, the Rogue has to find another way to gain Combat Advantage for the first attack against any given creature to get his Sneak Attack damage.
And the round on which the Rogue misses his target or attacks a different target (shy of using an Action Point) is the moment that WinterTouch resets (i.e. next turn, WinterTouch again does not give Combat Advantage).
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There is something else that you should know about this combination.
It does not automatically give the Rogue Combat Advantage. WinterTouch (combined with Lasting Frost) only gives Combat Advantage the second time an opponent is hit within 1.5 rounds.
So, the Rogue has to find another way to gain Combat Advantage for the first attack against any given creature to get his Sneak Attack damage.
And the round on which the Rogue misses his target or attacks a different target (shy of using an Action Point) is the moment that WinterTouch resets (i.e. next turn, WinterTouch again does not give Combat Advantage).
Oh yeah, we already know about this, so I guess it's not as big a deal as I first thought – thanks again, to everybody.
It is unambiguous RAW, and only sligntly ambiguous RAI. Custserve has ruled on various permutations of this question, and all but one has been in favor of the interpretation that this works. The only disenting one was a question specifically about magic missile with staff of storms, with no references to any of the rules that might apply in the question. Admittedly, the staff of storms is the thing that makes the RAI slightly muddy, but it is the one exception to the otherwise consistency in the rule. Maybe if the custserve were perfect with the rules then omiting the pertinent rules might be OK, but since they are obviously not, I tend to go with the answers to questions with all known pretinent rules references.
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