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*CLERIC*
A+ / Consecrated Ground
C+ / Rune of Peace
A / Spiritual Weapon
A / Weapon of the Gods
Consecrated Ground: Automatic damage to enemies only, surge-free healing to half health (useful after combat nothing else) - especially amusing on a high level PC getting dropped in the area and immediately waking up at the start of its turn. Every time. Oh, and it's movable. Rune of Peace: vs Will. Guaranteed that target cannot attack for one round, which is extremely nice, though it doesn't set up other attacks like daze or blind, and is obviously worse than stun. Damage really low. Spiritual Weapon: Guaranteed combat advantage on one target (switchable) each round for an entire battle. And, hey, damage while you're at it. Weapon of the Gods: An extra d6 per attack from someone on an entire battle is actually quite respectable damage, but it gets really gross when you factor in the -2 AC that can be shifted from target to target as you kill them.
Wow, clerics really set a strong initial act for this level.
*FIGHTER*
C+ / Crack the Shell
C+ / Dizzying Blow
A / Rain of Steel
Crack the Shell: A reliable -2 penalty to AC power is a real help for powerplays Dizzying Blow: Immobilize is a decent option for defenders and I'll admit that immobilize (save ends) can set up some nice tactical options since it almost guarantees an enemy will start two turns in a zone. At a minimum, it seems like a solid improvement over Brute Strike. Rain of Steel: Automatic minion killing and more average damage than any of the other fighter powers if it hits only two or so times? As a minor action to start? Nice. In theory a power being a stance should be a penalty, but there appear to be so few that I'm not going to mark them down for now.
*PALADIN*
B+ / Hallowed Circle
B- / Martyr's Retribution
B+ / Sign of Vulnerability
Hallowed Circle: Very large area that damages only enemies is nice, and then the entire area provides a bonus to all defenses for the encounter. Martyr's Retribution: Very good damage. While a healing surge is a cost, it's often enough a negligible cost to a paladin (or defender). Sign of Vulnerability: If this hits, there is nothing to prevent you sustaining it until the target is dead. The target's allies may try to avoid being in a dangerous spot for sustain, but it's still a very solid effect on the first round with some nice possibilities in later rounds.
Excruciating Shot: Decent, but pales compared to the other options. Same frustrating save problem where the creatures you most want to weaken are most likely to save very fast. Frenzied Skirmish: Decent damage, but 1 or 2 dazes and a big OA-free move make this a good option. Splintering Shot: That's a solid attack penalty on an enemy for the entire encounter. Two-Wolf Pounce: Versatile shifting options and 3 attacks. Comparison to Frenzied Skirmish is interesting here.
Clever Riposte: Pretty clever form of protection and amusing that it works on ranged and area attacks (making for odd tactical advantages by hanging out in the middle of where good areas should be situated), but it's not a ton of damage and it's fairly easy to just attack anyone else. The attack itself is lackluster. Deep Cut: vs. Fortitude. If it hits, that's a ton of ongoing damage potentially, but likely it won't last long. Walking Wounded: vs Fortitude, can also be done ranged. If it hits, it's potentially good for laughs at least even if it's pretty easy to avoid triggering it.
*WARLOCK*
C+ / Avernian Eruption
D+ / Crown of Madness
D+ / Curse of the Bloody Fangs
B+ / Hunger of Hadar
Avernian Eruption: Size of area kinda small. Ongoing damage autokills minions at least. Crown of Madness: I really want to like this, but it's lackluster damage, not a big detriment even if not saved against and its primary effect requires a sustain with a save so might never trigger at all. Curse of the Bloody Fangs: A spell targetting AC is a real disad. The sustain is potentially cool, but also might be saved against before ever triggering any effect and is easy for the target to minimize the effect of with positioning. Hunger of Hadar: Automatic high damage effect with a nice sustain kicker. If you can force creatures into it and/or force them to remain in it, it can add up to a ton of damage, but it's a small area so easy to avoid after the initial effect most likely. Also, necrotic. Blocks line of sight, which might be useful though it complicates locking an opponent down into it potentially.
*WARLORD*
B+ / Stand the Fallen
D- / Turning Point
C- / Villain's Nightmare
Stand the Fallen: Primarily useful for its area heal, but that's a fantastic area heal. Turning Point: Turn back one page to Inspiring War Cry. It's _better_ than this ability (though not by much). But it's a lower level encounter ability. Villain's Nightmare: Against Reflex, which helps. While there are a couple of cool tactical things you can do with this, it really feels too specialized / limited.
*WIZARD*
B- / Bigby's Icy Grasp
C+ / Fireball
A / Stinking Cloud
C- / Web
Bigby's Icy Grasp: This spell is quite effective for hindering one enemy at a time for a battle and provides a good alternative to using an at-will for increased damage. Potentially costly in actions. Fireball: Quite large area. Stinking Cloud: Good sized area of solid damage, including automatic damage. The ability to move it is extremely powerful. The line of sight blocking can be useful or harmful, but I'll grudgingly call it a tactical plus. Web: This spell can be quite good if there is a very specific area you don't want people to go, such as for using it defensively to protect someone. That said, it's a bit too easy to avoid being immobilized or to escape the area.
The As are all fuzzy As. None violently leapt out as A+s, but some should probably be A-s and it may be that some should be A+. I have to admit, '3W and minor effect on hit, half damage and no effect on miss' are starting to look really bad compared to things like 'automatic damage every round for rest of combat'.
Last edited by keterys; 7th October 2008 at 06:29 PM..
*WIZARD*
B- / Bigby's Icy Grasp
C+ / Fireball
A / Stinking Cloud
C- / Web
Bigby's Icy Grasp: This spell is quite effective for hindering one enemy at a time for a battle and provides a good alternative to using an at-will for increased damage. Potentially costly in actions. Fireball: Quite large area. Stinking Cloud: Good sized area of solid damage, including automatic damage. The ability to move it is extremely powerful. The line of sight blocking can be useful or harmful, but I'll grudgingly call it a tactical plus. Web: This spell can be quite good if there is a very specific area you don't want people to go, such as for using it defensively to protect someone. That said, it's a bit too easy to avoid being immobilized or to escape the area.
In picking out dailies for a wizard, I found that the action economy mattered a lot. In an important battle, I might want to blow two or three daily powers. That means that I don't want to be caught with multiple powers that require a sustain to be effective. Obviously a wizard has it easier on that front since he can swap out which 'sustain' powers are memorized on any given day.
Web might be under-graded a little. It can be positively brutal in combination with a zone or control power from another PC. I watched an elite get chewed up by a cleric's guardian of the faith when he failed his save to escape for a couple of rounds running.
Yep, immobilizing (save ends) is nice... but if the elite had been missed on the initial cast, it could have just walked out of the area, no harm.
I had it higher, but there's a lot of instances where it just doesn't do anything at all I felt, which is a cardinal sin for dailies for me I'll be happy to upgrade it if others feel it should be.
Cleric:
I would drop Spiritual Weapon to an A-. I've seen this one in action, and all that the target has to do is delay his action until after the spell is sustained. Then he can simply step out of that square, and will not grant combat advantage. It's still a pretty good annoyance though, and combos well with an immobilize effect from another character.
Rogue:
I'd bump Walking Wounded up to a B-. It's a great tool against Skirmishers and Lurkers. And there is no save, unlike most immobilize and slow effects.
Warlord:
At this level, compared to all the other powers that do 3[W] damage, Stand the Fallen has a superb effect. Easily an A power.
Wizard:
I might drop Stinking Cloud down a knotch to an A-, because it can be challenging to use, and can hinder the actions of your allies.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Cleric:
I would drop Spiritual Weapon to an A-. I've seen this one in action, and all that the target has to do is delay his action until after the spell is sustained. Then he can simply step out of that square, and will not grant combat advantage. It's still a pretty good annoyance though, and combos well with an immobilize effect from another character.
Unless there is errata, that tactic does not work. There is no requirement for the target to be in the square nor for the spiritual weapon to hit, only that it attack the target (or be sustained) to provide it for another round.
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Rogue:
I'd bump Walking Wounded up to a B-. It's a great tool against Skirmishers and Lurkers. And there is no save, unlike most immobilize and slow effects.
It's really quite easy to avoid triggering it, however, and it does subpar damage on its own.
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Warlord:
At this level, compared to all the other powers that do 3[W] damage, Stand the Fallen has a superb effect. Easily an A power.
Sure... and a 3W power on its own is starting to not look very good as a daily 5. The effect is superb, agreed... but A? How much would just the effect be worth (no damage at all), do you reckon? It's harder to rank healing on its own merit, especially something like this... that's like giving, say... 3 people surges. To compare to Consecrated Ground, another A, it does amazingly better at damaging enemies and doesn't cost surges for its healing. Unfortunately it requires bloodied - once bloodied, it can heal far more damage, especially on demand (over the next 5 minutes) or if people are actually falling down, but I'd consider its healing less innately useful if I had to pick.
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Wizard:
I might drop Stinking Cloud down a knotch to an A-, because it can be challenging to use, and can hinder the actions of your allies.
Why is it challenging to use? I agree it can hinder the actions of your allies, but it similarly can force enemies to leave an area to see anyone, etc, so it also hinders enemies. Given you get to choose when to use it, I didn't treat this as a net disad.
Unless there is errata, that tactic does not work. There is no requirement for the target to be in the square nor for the spiritual weapon to hit, only that it attack the target (or be sustained) to provide it for another round.
Chalk it up to another thing we've played wrong.
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Originally Posted by keterys
and a 3W power on its own is starting to not look very good as a daily 5.
How many [W]'s does a power need, before it starts to look good? Damage is still important. Effects alone, don't kill opponents. A monster can be blinded, immobilized, and dazed, but you still have to do damage to kill it. I think 3[W] is respectable for a Warlord, who is expected to be in melee to do his schtick. Also there are many times instant healing via surges is better than slow HP gain while bloodied, so when comparing it to Consecrated Ground, I feel they both have similar effectiveness, just at different times.
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Originally Posted by keterys
Why is it challenging to use? I agree it can hinder the actions of your allies, but it similarly can force enemies to leave an area to see anyone, etc, so it also hinders enemies. Given you get to choose when to use it, I didn't treat this as a net disad.
The initial use is probably not too difficult. But afterwords, it seems wherever you try to move it, you're blocking your Rogue's flanking options, or hindering something else. It's a big template. It still does a ton of auto damage, so I'm ok leaving it an A.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
How many [W]'s does a power need, before it starts to look good? Damage is still important.
Actually, that's sort of my point. You get more damage from multiple attacks or from automatic damage zones and auras and such. 3W on its own does not a good daily make - it really needs more oomph to compare to the other damaging effects. Everyone heals is definitely oomph.
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I think 3[W] is respectable for a Warlord, who is expected to be in melee to do his schtick.
I actually agree - I think the main thing about the warlord powers are the Effects.
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Also there are many times instant healing via surges is better than slow HP gain while bloodied, so when comparing it to Consecrated Ground, I feel they both have similar effectiveness, just at different times.
You might be surprised at how fast the healing from Consecrated Ground ends up being... but yeah, I'd rather have the healing from the Warlord power because it's easier to use (though consecrated ground could get ridiculous in a fight against many solos, effectively becoming an automatic win). Ignoring the healing, Consecrated Ground blows away Stand the Fallen for potential damage output and tactical usefulness though... which is why I figured Stand the Fallen would be lower than it.
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The initial use is probably not too difficult. But afterwords, it seems wherever you try to move it, you're blocking your Rogue's flanking options, or hindering something else. It's a big template. It still does a ton of auto damage, so I'm ok leaving it an A.
Yeah, it's a lot less useful if you can't _also_ have people fighting some other stuff. Clearcutting through all the minions and neutralizing back row controllers and artillery while you deal with brutes up front, golden. Fighting a solo? Eh...
Weapon of the Gods as an A power?! Again I'm hampered by not having the book with me right now but I remember looking at that one and thinking how useless it was compared to Spiritual Weapon. The extra damage and -2 AC depend on your ally hitting while Spiritual weapon always (I think) grants CA and does more damage.
Web seems like it deserves better than C-. It creates (I think) an area burst 2 section of difficult terrain which means that monsters can't cross it without being having a chance of being immobilized. This is especially useful if the monsters are primary melee and start out 10+ spaces away from the PCs. In this case, a web can block their path with difficult terrain and more importantly stagger their arrival so that the PCs can kill them 1 by 1 as they arrive. Of course, I may be slightly biased in favor of web as it was one of my favorite spells in 3rd edition and the tactic above saved the party many times.
Weapon of the Gods as an A power?! Again I'm hampered by not having the book with me right now but I remember looking at that one and thinking how useless it was compared to Spiritual Weapon. The extra damage and -2 AC depend on your ally hitting while Spiritual weapon always (I think) grants CA and does more damage.
Spiritual weapon requires a standard action to cast, and every round, a move action to move and a minor action to sustain and attack. Weapon of the Gods is a minor action to cast, and lasts till the end of the encounter. Put it on a Rogue's weapon, and since the rogue will typically be maneuvering for CA, -2 penalty to AC can become more useful. And to add insult to injury, the damage is radiant. This makes undead uncounters considerably easier, since not only can the cleric be doing Radiant damage, but he can let someone else do it too.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Weapon of the Gods as an A power?! Again I'm hampered by not having the book with me right now but I remember looking at that one and thinking how useless it was compared to Spiritual Weapon. The extra damage and -2 AC depend on your ally hitting while Spiritual weapon always (I think) grants CA and does more damage.
Yeah, I was surprised myself, but it's a minor action, adds radiant damage, and that -2 is a big enabler. That'll increase the damage of many other powers, jetting it right ahead.
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Web seems like it deserves better than C-. It creates (I think) an area burst 2 section of difficult terrain which means that monsters can't cross it without being having a chance of being immobilized. This is especially useful if the monsters are primary melee and start out 10+ spaces away from the PCs. In this case, a web can block their path with difficult terrain and more importantly stagger their arrival so that the PCs can kill them 1 by 1 as they arrive. Of course, I may be slightly biased in favor of web as it was one of my favorite spells in 3rd edition and the tactic above saved the party many times.
Any creature can cross it without a chance of being immobilized, as long as they don't end their turn in it. It's a 5x5 area, so you need to be able to move at least 11 squares to get across it entirely, of course, so if your speed is 3 or less then you won't be able to cross it in one turn, even running... but otherwise it's potentially very easy to avoid the immobilize effect.
Anyone have much play experience with Web and can say how effective it is, as long as the initial immobilize hit doesn't land? That is, for targets initially outside the web or for targets moving through it?
Any creature can cross it without a chance of being immobilized, as long as they don't end their turn in it. It's a 5x5 area, so you need to be able to move at least 11 squares to get across it entirely, of course, so if your speed is 3 or less then you won't be able to cross it in one turn, even running... but otherwise it's potentially very easy to avoid the immobilize effect.
Anyone have much play experience with Web and can say how effective it is, as long as the initial immobilize hit doesn't land? That is, for targets initially outside the web or for targets moving through it?
I realized that I was forgetting about the ability to take a double move, doh. If monsters didn't have the ability to do that, then web would be an amazing power than it is as it would always immobilize anything slower than speed 10. Still at least it provides an barrier to speed 5 creatures who are unwilling to run or who are starting more than 2 squares away. It would be a lot more effective if there was a way to inflict mass slow or mass daze on a group which would render them unable to to safely move through the web.
On closer review of the wizard, I'm still wondering how effective he is in his role of a controller. Our party's wizard has been nothing more than an wimpy striker with above average minion killing capacity and rarely disrupts the monsters plan of battle.
Clever Riposte: Pretty clever form of protection and amusing that it works on ranged and area attacks (making for odd tactical advantages by hanging out in the middle of where good areas should be situated), but it's not a ton of damage and it's fairly easy to just attack anyone else. The attack itself is lackluster. Deep Cut: vs. Fortitude. If it hits, that's a ton of ongoing damage potentially, but likely it won't last long. Walking Wounded: vs Fortitude, can also be done ranged. If it hits, it's potentially good for laughs at least even if it's pretty easy to avoid triggering it.
Looking at the math for Clever Riposte and Deep cut, it seems that the rogue would have to be the focus of 3 attacks before the two evened out. The ongoing damage (assuming 16 str) from Deep Cut will do an average of: 8 + 4 + 2 + 1 + .5 + .25 .... which sums up to ~16 damage. Assuming 20 dex, clever ripose will do 5 damage per attack which will quickly add up. The rogue could combine this with Riposte Strike if they ever were isololated and forced to fight alone.
However it's always a bad idea to give your opponent (or your DM) choices as they will pick the one that harms them the least. The rogue was never the first target of monsters in my game who prefered to eat the wizard or the cleric hanging in the back. Walking Wounded has the same issue of giving your opponent choices as the creature won't trigger the effect if its not in its best interest to make a sudden dash. I'd lower the grade on both Clever Riposte and Walking Wounded for this reason.
Spiritual weapon requires a standard action to cast, and every round, a move action to move and a minor action to sustain and attack. Weapon of the Gods is a minor action to cast, and lasts till the end of the encounter. Put it on a Rogue's weapon, and since the rogue will typically be maneuvering for CA, -2 penalty to AC can become more useful. And to add insult to injury, the damage is radiant. This makes undead uncounters considerably easier, since not only can the cleric be doing Radiant damage, but he can let someone else do it too.
I did the math to see how Weapon of the Gods compares with Spiritual Weapon. Assume that a given enemy grants CA half the time to a PC who is seeking to gain it.
Expected damage of Weapons of the Gods: .65(3.5 + ally damage).
I admit that the +3 to hit is only a crude estimation as we should really calculate the probability of the AC penalty + CA existing at the same time to find the average bonus to hit which is made tricky since a hit with weapon of the gods makes it more likely that the next attack will hit. In any case, I'm pretty sure that the true bonus lies between 2 and 3 so we'll assume the upper level for now.
Expected damage of Spiritual Weapon = .6(5.5 + ally Damage).
A 2-handed maul fighter with 18 str, a +2 weapon and weapon focus is going to be doing 14 damage per hit which gives us 11.7 expected damage for Spiritual Weapon and 11.375 expected damage for Weapon of the Gods. If we adopt the pessimistic view of Weapon of the Gods' to hit bonus, the expected damage drops to 10.5. If we give Weapon of the Gods to a twin strike using archery ranger then it clearly out damages Spiritual Weapon. In addition, Weapon of the God is esentially a free action which gives it a head start on Spiritual Weapon.
I admit to being surprised to how good Weapon of the Gods appears to be. I suppose that I overlooked it before because it wasn't very flashy and enchanced a party member rather than being an awesome attack for the cleric. I would guess then that Weapon of the Gods is better as long as you have a ranger or 2 handed fighter in the group while Spiritual weapon is better if you have a rogue or warlock.
And weapon of the gods only gets better if you have multiple people targetting AC. If you've got a twin strike ranger, 2h warrior, and a rogue, then that -2 AC really starts to kick in
Especially if it's used with something more serious, like another daily. Like Cascade of Blades.
Especially if it's used with something more serious, like another daily. Like Cascade of Blades.
Blinding Barrage or Cloud of Steel with a Weapon of the Gods would be quite good too. Obviously the Ranger has the most multi-attack options though. Sweeping Whirlwind for instance would be pretty fantastic.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I admit that the +3 to hit is only a crude estimation as we should really calculate the probability of the AC penalty + CA existing at the same time to find the average bonus to hit which is made tricky since a hit with weapon of the gods makes it more likely that the next attack will hit. In any case, I'm pretty sure that the true bonus lies between 2 and 3 so we'll assume the upper level for now.
If we separate the bonus from CA and Weapon of the Gods, the math becomes a lot easier and it's pretty easy to show the AC penalty from Weapon of the Gods is around 1.5555 (repeating). Assume a 50% chance to hit or miss, the AC penalty has a %50 chance of being applied. On the second round, the chance to hit is .6(.5)+.5(.5) or .55. On the third round, the chance to hit is .6(.55) + .5(.45) or .555 and so on. A 50% chance of combat advantage evens out to +1 and thus we can assume an average bonus of 2.5555. If you combine the bonus then things get more complicated but I don't see the need to do so when we're already making wide assumptions about being able to attack every round and the 50% chance of combat advantage.
I did have it as a B+, but upgraded it last night (I think cause I upgraded Beacon of Hope and Flaming Sphere, the things I was comparing it to). I'm more than content to reduce it.
But flaming sphere got an errata change that made it take up a square. The guardian requires an attack roll to do its per round damage, doesn't have AoO's or anything other than its square that its blocking.
Its good in that you can stick it right in front with your line while a flaming sphere will be dealing damage to friendlies, but in general, even with a fighter, flaming sphere is just plain better. Guardian is something you should only take if you don't have a controller in the group.
ed: About the only thing you can do with it is stick it near a squishy to get everything to scatter the next round. But since they can attack, then move, and since 1d8+wis is not exactly impressive(even after an attack roll) its not something that makes a strong deterrent.
Fair enough. Looks like downgrade Guardian to B+... and upgrade Web to C. If no objections, I'll do that when I put in the Daily 9s.
Also... the 2 warlock daily 5 powers that have a hit, no miss, and sustain (save ends)... may be a bit better than I thought. It's unclear if you need to hit to sustain and it's unclear if you can save against the effect before it's sustained (and thusly triggers) at least once. Which would make a big difference. I'll leave them as is, for now though.
I'll be happy to upgrade it if others feel it should be.
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