Grading Daily Powers

[keterys]

this confuses me in that stand can miss and do no healing where as renew does 10+cha even on a miss. line of sight and not using surges are also both benefits to renew.

Stand heals as an effect.

So, comparing the two:

Both do the exact same damage (despite a 10 level gap)
Stand the Fallen heals a surge + charisma, no matter what (call it 32 hp for our purposes)
Renew the Troops heals a surge + charisma on hit, 10 + charisma on miss (call it 32 and 16, or say 24 average)
Stand the Fallen affects all allies within 10 squares (which has always been 'all allies' for me when I've used it)
Renew the Troops affects all allies within line of sight (which means it doesn't work through zones of darkness or on blinded allies but has slightly more potential range)
Renew the Troops does not use a surge.

So, renew the troops _heals less_ but does not cost a surge. Everything else cancels out.

In situations in which you aren't worried about running out of surges (which is most, in my experience, since as you said you don't go into an encounter if someone is below 3 if you can arrange it), Stand the Fallen is _better_.

[keterys]

I know less people are checking this out, but if anyone has any feedback on the daily 15s please try to get them in soon so I can factor things in easily. I'm actually going to start working on the daily 19s while I have momentum.

First reaction: Oh boy, some of these are pretty insane

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

Originally Posted by keterys

No... it really isn't.

The problem here is semantical. I fully understand that daze always grants CA and takes away an action even if there's no other benefit. By equally situational I meant that given the weighted impact of each outcome and the probability of each situation they were equally situational. In the event no one attacks the creature while it's dazed but it can charge another pc and manages to hit, what real benefit was daze? Even if someone attacks CA only changes the outcome 10% of the time unless we're talking about a rogue which is again situational (the party might have no rogue).

Originally Posted by keterys

It always helps some.

Not true at all, if you take the perception that it only helps if it changes an outcome or prevents damage. If it is true then it's equally true of immobilize. Immobilize always prevents some actions. I would say this is a tiny benefit if the creature still gets off an attack that hits. Unless it can't move from damaging terrain then it's pretty huge either way.

You seem to be undervaluing the ability of immobilize to prevent an attack and over valuing the ability of daze to do so.

Originally Posted by keterys

Sometimes it helps a lot more than others, but it always improves the party's chance to hit, gives the rogue damage output, and denies certain actions.

improved to hit only matters 1 time in 10, if there's a rogue and he hits this is a benefit, denying actions is only important if those actions would have happened. I understand it's clearly a benefit of daze that a wizard can fire off a big ranged attack and then move fully away from the powerful melee critter and not provoke an OA with either.

Originally Posted by keterys

Immobilized _sometimes_ either prevents a creature from attacking or makes it take opportunity attacks to do something good.

change sometimes to most of the time. You pick the target of the power, you're not frequently going to dump an immobilize on the archer but you're very likely to drop it on the umberhulk.

Originally Posted by keterys

Both can end up with people stuck in a zone unable to move, though immobilize is slightly better at it.

Immobilize is massively better at it. Only teleport escapes. Other than that it's 100% effective. Daze only helps if the terrain is difficult and the creature doesn't have enough points of movement to reach an edge. This means for most creatures they must be 4 squares from the edge of the terrain. How often does that happen? 90% of zones are under 6 squares so unless you have another factor involved (i.e. the zone is in a corner of a room and the creature is in the corner of the zone that is the corner of the room) the creature can almost always escape.

Originally Posted by keterys

Daze is better at dealing with enemies who have minor or move actions of note.

define move actions of note. Does this mean teleport?

Originally Posted by keterys

Immobilize has best usefulness in the first round of combat when you can immobilize enemies before they engage (or are engaged, by your own melee), but after that its usefulness depends a lot on the combat setup.

Highly subjective and can be equally applied to daze. If you're adjacent to a creature that gets immobilized you can shift away and deny him his attack. You're not going to attempt to immobilize a creature that is already adjacent to a pc and will act before that pc unless you have no better options. you kep trying to make highly situational and anecdotal arguments against immobilize without considering the inverse.

Originally Posted by keterys

For example, looking at level 22 enemies for a second, of 10 options

Massively stilted level selection. Really anecdotal when compared to all 30 levels. By the epic tier most creatures have more options for attacking. By level 22 a pc might have a host of debilitating effects in his arsenal and you'll likely deploy the ones that have more impact ont he target. I'll still play along because I'm a good sport but this was a ridiculously uneven level to choose.

Originally Posted by keterys

(not including the minion who already died)

why is he dead if it's round one?

+Rot Slinger (Rot Harbinger) Level 22 Artillery - much better melee than ranged though both are good. CA probably is better than stopping this guy from reaching melee though it's closer than you think and I might call it a wash because ongoing 10 is a lot worse than weak.

*Bluespawn Godslayer Level 22 Elite Brute - would you target this creature after he was engaged? If I do hit him with immobilize, he's not in combat. Daze also does not prevent him from attacking. Suppose the effect lasts 3 rounds. Immobilize has completely prevented him from engaging for 3 rounds where daze just forced him to charge and his speed is 8 so he can cover a lot of ground. Granted CA might have caused him to take more dmg but I'll take immobilize especially as I'll be choosing when I use my powers it will never be after he's in combat with our fighter.

*Death Giant Level 22 Brute - same as above, advantage immobilize
*Hezrou (Demon) Level 22 Brute - same as above advantage immobilize.
#War Devil (Malebranche) Level 22 Brute (L) - teleport, advantage dazed
#Marut Concordant Level 22 Elite Controller - teleport, advantage dazed
#Astral Stalker (Abomination) Level 22 Elite Lurker - ranged attacks, invisibility action, only slightly affected
#Efreet Fireblade Level 22 Soldier - only has 1 ranged attack and that needs a recharge. Possible to immobilize him after he's used it and still gain great use of immobilize. still advantage dazed.
#Elder Red Dragon Level 22 Solo Soldier - reach 3, hover flight, ranged and melee attacks, immobilize makes flying creatures land, hover creatures do not need to spend a move action and thus remain aloft if dazed, this creature also has only one ranged attack out side of 5 and that has a recharge so immobilize could tie it up for several rounds and leave it powerless to act. I'll still give this to daze but immobilize could definitely impact this situationally.
*Thunderhawk (Roc) Level 22 Elite Soldier - still affected better by immobilize than daze, it's primary attack is a charge and it has hover flight. Incidentally when I looked up this creature I looked at roc's (level 14) a regular roc is devastated by immobilize and only moderately affected by daze. It has a fly by attack so it will still function normally it just won't get the bit after it tosses you to the rocks. Meanwhile immobilize makes it crash, no attacks unless it happens to fall next to you. Just one example that shows a huge bonus to immobilize.

Originally Posted by keterys

So... immobilize not so good against an entire level of enemies, there.

I question this logic quite a bit beyond the fact you picked a level designed to shaft immobilize I think it works better on the minion and 4 of the other 10 while being pretty close to even on 1 more. I had thought that immobilize makes flying creatures land but in looking at the dmg for this post I realize that's not true as silly as that seems.

Originally Posted by keterys

Stand heals as an effect.

Oops, missed that. I totally get it now, thanks. Surges are still valuable but the healing is still better for stand. Really poorly designed change from 6th to 16th. I still think this is a good power (possibly 300 hp's with no surge) but it's annoying to see the weakness when compared to stand. One note on line of site. I agree with you on line of sight/blinded. It totally makes sense and I would probably play it that way as well, but RAW fanatics might say LOS and actually seeing aren't the same. I would agree that range ten will mostly always get all allies but I would also say that line of sight is more likely to benefit you than hurt you in this regard. I've seen a lot more encounters where my pc's are more than 10 squares apart than I have where they couldn't find a line of sight to each other.

Originally Posted by keterys

In situations in which you aren't worried about running out of surges (which is most, in my experience, since as you said you don't go into an encounter if someone is below 3 if you can arrange it), Stand the Fallen is _better_.

Yes we try to avoid encounter when the fighter or rogue is down to less than 3. I agree stand is better most of the time but the non surge healing might mean we saved a surge in an earlier encounter and thus have an extra one each remaining so renew is better in that instance.

[Korror]

Originally Posted by AngryPurpleCyclops

Why does no one discuss stunning steel? It appears to me that two attacks both with stun is pretty mighty. Damage is low but the opportunity to stun two creatures or at least the high probability of stunning one seems pretty strong. Comparable to confounding arrows in a most favorable way to my perception.

I seem to have overlooked that power when I was going through the PHB. On quick inspection stunning steel is not quite as effective as confounding arrows mainly because you have to be in melee range but it is still a stunning power which are always effective. I'd say it rates an A- based on the score confounding arrows received.

[keterys]

Originally Posted by AngryPurpleCyclops

In the event no one attacks the creature while it's dazed but it can charge another pc and manages to hit, what real benefit was daze?

You may want to note the disclaimer for these ratings:
"All powers are graded assuming they are used effectively - if a power requires a second person in melee to work, don't take it in a party with no other melee. In many cases you'll find that personal preference varies from these grades - while a power may be extraordinary in theory or combined with the right build or party, take the power that is most fun for you!"

Not true at all, if you take the perception that it only helps if it changes an outcome or prevents damage.

It always means the rogue doesn't need flank. It always means that people can ignore opportunity attacks from the target. It always means that sustaining powers is painful and that some other abilities are denied. It always synergizes with other effects like grab or prone. It always provides an increase in average via combat advantage. It always means the target has limited ability to select targets if the party chooses to take appropriate steps. Etc.

Ignoring the benefits of daze so that it doesn't have an effect is not effectively using it.

You seem to be undervaluing the ability of immobilize to prevent an attack and over valuing the ability of daze to do so.

Immobilize is quite effective at preventing some attacks from some targets.

change sometimes to most of the time. You pick the target of the power, you're not frequently going to dump an immobilize on the archer but you're very likely to drop it on the umberhulk.

And if you're not fighting any melee only creatures? If the Umber Hulk won initiative and is already adjacent to someone, so you need to double move to make it lose the ability to attack and it will _still_ be able to use its confusing gaze unless you're more than 5 squares away?

Immobilize is massively better at it. Only teleport escapes.

Or any type of forced movement... not common but I've seen a Deathlock Wight push an ally out of a zone, for instance.

Daze only helps if the terrain is difficult and the creature doesn't have enough points of movement to reach an edge.

Or if a fighter can OA to stop movement, or heavy blade opportunity can slow or push or slide the target.

But, as I noted, immobilize is better at keeping creatures in a zone. Certainly agree.

If you're adjacent to a creature that gets immobilized you can shift away and deny him his attack.

Only certain creatures, only if all allies shift - which makes it both initiative dependent and ally action dependent, and potentially limits your damage output (such as by negating flank for the rogue)

You're not going to attempt to immobilize a creature that is already adjacent to a pc and will act before that pc unless you have no better options.

Correct. Making it not useful in those cases... which makes immobilize less effective.

you kep trying to make highly situational and anecdotal arguments against immobilize without considering the inverse.

No, I am considering it. I'm giving it a different weight than you are. You seem to be assuming that you'll always have the right target selection and tactical situation. Immobilize is _fantastic_ in the first round of combat with the right enemies... with the wrong enemies less so, after the first round or if you lose initiative... even less.

Massively stilted level selection. Really anecdotal when compared to all 30 levels.

I was looking at level 15 powers, so I'd had that level of creatures up to look at for the Bloody Path example. I can certainly bring up more examples, but I hardly think that an entire level of creatures, every single one of them, is 'anecdotal' to the discussion. If immobilize becomes significantly less useful at epic, that is a an impact.

ridiculously uneven level to choose.

Eh, one I had up. I'll do another level later... but we are looking at level 15 powers, so it can only go so low

why is he dead if it's round one?

Because he's a minion and you just immobilized him. I sure hope you damaged him too

+Rot Slinger (Rot Harbinger) Level 22 Artillery - much better melee than ranged though both are good. CA probably is better than stopping this guy from reaching melee though it's closer than you think and I might call it a wash because ongoing 10 is a lot worse than weak.

Its ranged attack is as good as its melee... it's not only weaken, it's also vs Fort (more likely to hit), and -2 to saves which can be very helpful for maintaining other effects.

*Bluespawn Godslayer Level 22 Elite Brute - would you target this creature after he was engaged? If I do hit him with immobilize, he's not in combat. Daze also does not prevent him from attacking. Suppose the effect lasts 3 rounds. Immobilize has completely prevented him from engaging for 3 rounds where daze just forced him to charge and his speed is 8 so he can cover a lot of ground. Granted CA might have caused him to take more dmg but I'll take immobilize especially as I'll be choosing when I use my powers it will never be after he's in combat with our fighter.

Why would the effect last 3 rounds? It's got a save bonus, among other things. As noted, if you get initiative over it, in the first round of combat, you can immobilize it before it engages. If not, then it's likely already too late due to it having reach 3.

*Death Giant Level 22 Brute - same as above, advantage immobilize

Indeed, same as above, no advantage immobilize.

*Hezrou (Demon) Level 22 Brute - same as above advantage immobilize.

Ditto.

#Elder Red Dragon Level 22 Solo Soldier - reach 3, hover flight, ranged and melee attacks, immobilize makes flying creatures land, hover creatures do not need to spend a move action and thus remain aloft if dazed, this creature also has only one ranged attack out side of 5 and that has a recharge so immobilize could tie it up for several rounds and leave it powerless to act. I'll still give this to daze but immobilize could definitely impact this situationally.

Immobiize does not cause hover fliers to land... cool houserule though. (Ah, I see you realized this later on)

*Thunderhawk (Roc) Level 22 Elite Soldier - still affected better by immobilize than daze, it's primary attack is a charge and it has hover flight. Incidentally when I looked up this creature I looked at roc's (level 14) a regular roc is devastated by immobilize and only moderately affected by daze. It has a fly by attack so it will still function normally it just won't get the bit after it tosses you to the rocks. Meanwhile immobilize makes it crash, no attacks unless it happens to fall next to you. Just one example that shows a huge bonus to immobilize.

Hover flight still works, as you know. Immobilize is more effective on the level 14 Roc than daze under most situations, agreed.

I question this logic quite a bit beyond the fact you picked a level designed to shaft immobilize I think it works better on the minion and 4 of the other 10 while being pretty close to even on 1 more.

I didn't pick a level to shaft immobilize - I picked a median level for the powers we're looking at pretty randomly It doesn't matter to the minion at all and I'd show it as more effective than daze on one of the targets, about even on two of the targets, a solid effect on two more, a minor effect on one, and largely ineffective on the remaining four.

Oops, missed that. I totally get it now, thanks. Surges are still valuable but the healing is still better for stand. Really poorly designed change from 6th to 16th. I still think this is a good power (possibly 300 hp's with no surge) but it's annoying to see the weakness when compared to stand. One note on line of site. I agree with you on line of sight/blinded. It totally makes sense and I would probably play it that way as well, but RAW fanatics might say LOS and actually seeing aren't the same. I would agree that range ten will mostly always get all allies but I would also say that line of sight is more likely to benefit you than hurt you in this regard. I've seen a lot more encounters where my pc's are more than 10 squares apart than I have where they couldn't find a line of sight to each other.

Yeah, I just figure that it's easy enough to all be in 10 on purpose, but it's hard for someone to get unblinded or not be in a zone of darkness sometimes. I'd totally take controllable disadvantage over uncontrollable disadvantage, so I figure they cancel out

Yes we try to avoid encounter when the fighter or rogue is down to less than 3. I agree stand is better most of the time but the non surge healing might mean we saved a surge in an earlier encounter and thus have an extra one each remaining so renew is better in that instance.

When it gets down to it, I'm still marking Renew the Troops as a better power by the grade that I gave it... I just think it's a lot less impressive than others might. It doesn't affect the user, but puts him potentially in danger, while still assuming the rest of the party is hurt enough to need it, it requires a hit for optimal use by someone often less optimal at hitting, it's roughly comparable to existing powers - a level 10 utility or level 5 daily. Certainly enough marks to drop it out of high grade, on my book.

[keterys]

So, backing up from 22, let's look at 13 and 4.

Adult Blue Dragon Level 13 Solo Artillery - hover flight, great melee and ranged options, no big deal
Beholder Eye of Flame Level 13 Elite Artillery - hover flight, ranged attacks that don't provoke, can help party avoid fire burst but... no big deal
Drow Arachnomancer Level 13 Artillery (L) - attacks of all types, might cause some OAs
Githyanki Mindslicer Level 13 Artillery - reasonable ranged and melee options both, no big deal
Yuan-ti Malison Sharp-eye Level 13 Artillery - ranged attack is superior, so similar to weaken or might provoke OAs
Grimlock Berserker Level 13 Brute - can be completely screwed by immobilized
Hill Giant Level 13 Brute - Reach 2 makes shift more difficult to pull off and solid ranged attack, minor impact
Magma Brute (Magma Beast) Level 13 Brute - Reach 2 makes shift away more difficult to pull off, but first round immobilize quite effective
Briar Witch Dryad Level 13 Elite Controller - ranged attack, teleport, ineffective
Eidolon Level 13 Controller (L) - stance makes immobilize almost always ineffective
Githzerai Zerth Level 13 Elite Controller - both melee and ranged attacks, teleport, ineffective
Minotaur Cabalist Level 13 Controller (L) - melee and ranged attacks, no big deal
Mummy Lord Level 13 Elite Controller - only one decent ranged option, plus second wind, and aura still effective... pretty effective but not crippling
Balhannoth Level 13 Elite Lurker - reach 3, teleport, ineffective
Horde Ghoul Level 13 Minion - Already dead
Displacer Beast Packlord Level 13 Elite Skirmisher - Reach 3 (Threatening, even) makes post-Round 1 immobilize a lot less useful but it helps turn off displacement and shifting so still quite good
Dragonborn Raider Level 13 Skirmisher - Pretty much screwed
Drow Blademaster Level 13 Elite Skirmisher - Pretty much screwed
Gray Slaad (Rift Slaad) Level 13 Skirmisher - condition transfer, teleport, largely ineffective
Nightmare Level 13 Skirmisher - teleport, ineffective
Vrock (Demon) Level 13 Skirmisher - Reach 2 and burst 3 make it tougher after round 1, but it always shuts down flyby attack, crashes its flight, and potentially lets you avoid spores of madness, so it's pretty darn good
Bearded Devil (Barbazu) Level 13 Soldier - Reach 2
Hellstinger Scorpion Level 13 Soldier - Pretty much screwed
Helmed Horror Level 13 Soldier - crashes its flight, pretty much screwed
Hook Horror Level 13 Soldier - Reach 2, pull, grab, after round 1 effectiveness down a lot
Medusa Warrior Level 13 Elite Soldier - good ranged and melee options, no big deal

In hindsight, this whole immobilize discussion might have been a good fork. Anyhow, I'll do level 4 next.

[keterys]

Corruption Corpse (Zombie) Level 4 Artillery - good ranged and melee-range options, but being able to stay more than a square away from it is pretty useful so decent
Dwarf Bolter Level 4 Artillery - slightly worse melee attack, but not too bad
Human Mage Level 4 Artillery - crappy melee attack, either weakens it or provokes OAs
Magma Hurler (Magma Beast) Level 4 Artillery - slightly worse melee attack, but not too bad
Human Berserker Level 4 Brute - effectively weakened range attack
Kruthik Adult Level 4 Brute - good rechargeable range option, stops its aura, so pretty darn hindered
Magma Claw (Magma Beast) Level 4 Brute - screwed
Orc Berserker Level 4 Brute - screwed
Deathlock Wight Level 4 Controller - multiple good options, no big deal
Goblin Underboss Level 4 Controller (L) - screwed
Cavern Choker Level 4 Lurker - Reach 2, Grab, highly reduced effect after first round and it's good at stealthing so hard to nail down when it's not within grab range
Kobold Slyblade Level 4 Lurker - screwed
Specter Level 4 Lurker - Invisibility, burst 2... hampered certainly but not too bad.
Young Black Dragon Level 4 Solo Lurker - stops flying (but clumsy, so probably wasn't really anyways), reach 2, breath weapon and zone of darkness heavily mitigate effect
Orc Drudge Level 4 Minion - Dead already
Dark Creeper (Dark One) Level 4 Skirmisher - Can throw daggers fine, but loses its combat advantage trick
Deathjump Spider Level 4 Skirmisher - screwed
Ettercap Fang Guard Level 4 Skirmisher - screwed
Fey Panther Level 4 Skirmisher - some teleport so often ineffective
Greenscale Hunter (Lizardfolk) Level 4 Skirmisher - screwed
Rotwing Zombie Level 4 Skirmisher - screwed
Phantom Warrior Level 4 Soldier - screwed
Visejaw Crocodile Level 4 Soldier - grabs so harder to pull off, but screwed if you do
Warforged Soldier Level 4 Soldier - screwed

So immobilize is far more effective in heroic, being extremely powerful when used effectively in heroic, reasonable but not earth shattering in paragon, and honestly not very good at all in epic.

As one caveat, it's been my experience that a lot of humanoid enemies do carry throwing weapons, even if not in their stat blocks. That is, that kobold slyblades may have throwing daggers, a warforged soldier some javelins, etc. I suspect that is not necessarily typical experience, but worth note.

[Korror]

Originally Posted by keterys

I know less people are checking this out, but if anyone has any feedback on the daily 15s please try to get them in soon so I can factor things in easily. I'm actually going to start working on the daily 19s while I have momentum.

First reaction: Oh boy, some of these are pretty insane

The level 19 dailies are truly insane and it only gets more crazy into epic tier. I've got a feeling that they are going to hard to analyze as there are not too many people playing at that level (my group is still in heroic and we started close to when 4th edition came out) and each class is nearly the end of their paragon path and becoming even more hyper specialized. For example: Holy Wrath is an nice daily for a cleric but an excellent for the warpriest who can function as a defender and get the most out of that regeneration.

[keterys]

Even better for the multiclassed fighter/cleric warpriest.

[keterys]

Originally Posted by AngryPurpleCyclops

Why does no one discuss stunning steel? It appears to me that two attacks both with stun is pretty mighty. Damage is low but the opportunity to stun two creatures or at least the high probability of stunning one seems pretty strong. Comparable to confounding arrows in a most favorable way to my perception.

Good question - it wasn't on my typed in list of powers, I'm guessing through failed flipping the pagitis... at any rate, A. Can almost guarantee a stunned (save ends) and can often do it two targets. Its damage isn't that great, but it's certainly not bad. More than the rogue, paladin, or warlord options certainly

[apearlma]

Originally Posted by keterys

So immobilize is far more effective in heroic, being extremely powerful when used effectively in heroic, reasonable but not earth shattering in paragon, and honestly not very good at all in epic.

You don't seem to be factoring Cloak of Distortion in the mix - you immobilize an enemy with a mix of melee/ranged outside that 5 square range, and they're severely weakened.

(yes, broken, and most DMs should not let it into their games or take an axe to it, but it is LFR legal...)

[keterys]

Nah, it assumes that everyone has it (as opposed to, say, healer's brooch or cloak of survival or...) and that it's trivial to get everyone more than 5 squares from an immobilized enemy, and that's way too big of an assumption.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by AngryPurpleCyclops

The problem here is semantical. I fully understand that daze always grants CA and takes away an action even if there's no other benefit. By equally situational I meant that given the weighted impact of each outcome and the probability of each situation they were equally situational. (etc)

APC, I understand that you disagree on the relative benefits of daze and immobilise. I think we can drop the subject now as both sides understand where the other is coming from, and there is no need to attempt to persuade anyone to your point of view. I imagine that you will factor in such issues when you have a look at how other people grade things, and that is fine.

No more discussion on that issue in this thread though - start a separate thread if you really want to discuss it further.

Thanks

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

last post Plane, I was halfway done when I saw your admonishment.

Originally Posted by keterys

It always means the rogue doesn't need flank. It always means that people can ignore opportunity attacks from the target. It always means that sustaining powers is painful and that some other abilities are denied. It always synergizes with other effects like grab or prone. It always provides an increase in average via combat advantage. It always means the target has limited ability to select targets if the party chooses to take appropriate steps. Etc.

All of these are "sometimes valuable". This is the same argument you use to degrade immobilize. You apply _sometimes_ to it's benefit. This simply works both ways. I can see the logic of your side but you keep steam rolling mine. That's annoying. There are times when each is better. I'm really unsure why you can't seem to admit this.

Originally Posted by keterys

Ignoring the benefits of daze so that it doesn't have an effect is not effectively using it.

Can you not make the exact same argument about immobilize?

Originally Posted by keterys

And if you're not fighting any melee only creatures? If the Umber Hulk won initiative and is already adjacent to someone, so you need to double move to make it lose the ability to attack and it will _still_ be able to use its confusing gaze unless you're more than 5 squares away?

I can turn this around and point to many situations that daze won't impede the <insert various monsters> either. Once again it's hard for me to understand why you can't accept it's pretty close to even each having their benefits in various situations.

Originally Posted by keterys

Only certain creatures, only if all allies shift - which makes it both initiative dependent and ally action dependent, and potentially limits your damage output (such as by negating flank for the rogue)

the rogue can be busy attacking a different creature. You keep pointing to situations that detract from the immobilize but there are equally as many that detract from daze. By your own admission above you said it should be used affectively. lets assume you're going to do that with both not just immobilize.

Originally Posted by keterys

Correct. Making it not useful in those cases... which makes immobilize less effective.

I can change the word immobilize to daze and use this to counter many statements. Please stop doing that. For every use there is a situation that's bad for both. d

Originally Posted by keterys

No, I am considering it. I'm giving it a different weight than you are. You seem to be assuming that you'll always have the right target selection and tactical situation. Immobilize is _fantastic_ in the first round of combat with the right enemies... with the wrong enemies less so, after the first round or if you lose initiative... even less.

the first part of this is great! I agree we weight things differently. That's fine. The rest is garbage. I'm the one using the power, I pick when and where to deploy it. I can hit a monster in melee with a pc with immobilize and then when the pc goes he can hit the monster and shift away. You keep focusing on the fact that at higher levels more monsters have reach. This is offset by the number of powers that let you shift/teleport multiple squares. rogues, warlocks, eladrin, rangers, warlords, wizards, clerics all have ways to get away from reach creatures unharmed.

Originally Posted by keterys

I was looking at level 15 powers, so I'd had that level of creatures up to look at for the Bloody Path example. I can certainly bring up more examples, but I hardly think that an entire level of creatures, every single one of them, is 'anecdotal' to the discussion. If immobilize becomes significantly less useful at epic, that is a an impact.

I agree but i think you're still weighting this with no consideration for the fact that by your own admission we're going to use the powers effectively more often than not.

Originally Posted by keterys

but we are looking at level 15 powers, so it can only go so low

Not really accurate. I commented on this phenomena before we moved to level 15 and the tangential discussion that arose is really about the relative worth of debilitating powers regardless of level or across all levels. I fully agree that there are things that make immobilize less effective at epic. Not to the degree you're trying to imply simply because we're controlling where and when we use our powers and by your own admission we're not apt to do ourselves the disservice of wasting it.

Originally Posted by keterys

Why would the effect last 3 rounds? It's got a save bonus, among other things. As noted, if you get initiative over it, in the first round of combat, you can immobilize it before it engages. If not, then it's likely already too late due to it having reach 3.

at high level a lot of creatures can easily get away from reach 3. This is simply false and very misleading. The effect could be orb'd to a -10 or more. if you're a melee creature being immobilized and orbed is a kill where as daze is a major hindrance but not apt to take you out of the combat completely. Orb and immobilize is therefor better than daze in most circumstances not involving teleport. Orb/immobilize a dragon and stay outside his breath weapon and melee range... seems better than having him move in and action point the breath weapon.

Originally Posted by keterys

Indeed, same as above, no advantage immobilize.

Ditto.

again wrong on both counts. I'm using my powers effectively I promise you. I have init roughly half the time on the BBEG... how about you? I almost always have init on at last a few creatures in an encounter, how about you?

Originally Posted by keterys

I didn't pick a level to shaft immobilize - I picked a median level for the powers we're looking at pretty randomly

we've been looking at dailies from 1 to 15... I brought this up before we reached 15 i believe. I certainly thought it right away if I didn't say it. But I have a feeling in my posts about levels 1 or 5 I probably mentioned something about "why does everyone seem to think daze is so much better than immobilize"?

Originally Posted by keterys

So immobilize is far more effective in heroic, being extremely powerful when used effectively in heroic reasonable but not earth shattering in paragon, and honestly not very good at all in epic.

Finally we're at least finding some middle ground. I agree with this assessment for the most part. I think it's better than you imagine in epic because pc's can get away from reach 3 creatures a lot easier than you're giving then credit for and it can lock someone down in epic with orb. immobilize can have another use entirely. If you immobilize the ranged creature and the fighter moves adjacent he can't make any attacks without giving away OA. The fighter doesn't even have to mark him.

In retrospect the various effectiveness across tiers was probably a big part of why we couldn't find a middle ground sooner (does this mean you'll be going back and re-evaluating the heroic powers and upgrading immobilize? . I've only played in heroic so my experience/perspective is heavily weighted. I admitted right away that teleport totally hoses immobilize and dazed has added benefits as you get more creatures with minor powers at higher levels. I still find them comparable at worst in most encounters and immobilize far better in most encounters I'm familiar with. The ghoul encounter for example. Turn undead pushes them out of melee range and immobilizes them. what could be better short of disintegrating them

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

APC, I understand that you disagree on the relative benefits of daze and immobilise. I think we can drop the subject now as both sides understand where the other is coming from, and there is no need to attempt to persuade anyone to your point of view. I imagine that you will factor in such issues when you have a look at how other people grade things, and that is fine.

No more discussion on that issue in this thread though - start a separate thread if you really want to discuss it further.

Thanks

Dropped. I wrote most of this post before I came back and saw you had posted this.

[ChristopherA]

I thought your ratings were quite good. I thought I’d try to rank the powers in order according to my impressions, and see how it compares. Here is level 1, I was pretty close:

A Flaming Sphere
A Bastion of Defense
A Armor of Agathys, Beacon of Hope, Blinding Barrage
B+ Lead the Attack, Jaws of the Wolf, Freezing Cloud
B Radiant Delirium, Sleep
B Split the Tree
B Avenging Flame
B On Pain of Death
B- Flames of Phlegethos, Trick Strike, Pin the Foe
B- Guardian of Faith (I’m guessing, I’d have to see it in action)
C+ Brute Strike, Paladin’s Judgment
C+ Comeback Strike, Cascade of Light, Curse of the Dark Dream
C Hunter’s Bear Trap, Dread Star, White Raven Onslaught
C- Villain’s Menace, Acid Arrow
C- Sudden Strike, Easy Target

The power ratings will depend in some ways on the style of the campaign. Perhaps you fight solo monsters more often than I do. I was surprised that you rate Villain’s Menace so highly, since in playing I’ve found it to be quite weak. If you factor in how bad it is to miss with the power, you really need to get in at least 4 attacks with the attack/damage bonus before Villain’s Menace is clearly superior to Brute Strike. But Brute Strike is just so much more convenient and easy to use. In order for Villain’s Menace to be really effective, the fighter has to attack the same monster every round for several rounds, and the rest of the party has to refrain from killing that monster. At least in my group’s style of play, daily powers are most valuable when used in tough fights that you couldn’t win without them, and a power that can help the party quickly kill a dangerous threat is what everyone really wants. Low-level fights only seem to last about 6 rounds. If you can afford to leave a monster alive for the entire fight in order to maximize the effect of your daily power, maybe the monster wasn’t really worth spending a single-target daily on anyway. And during this time, the fighter can’t react defend the party against different tactical threats. I guess this power would be a lot more effective if you fought a lot of solos and tough elites.

The usefulness of a power like Comeback Strike, which lets you spend a healing surge, would vary a lot based on how restricted you are by healing surges. If you can rest whenever you want, Comeback is clearly better than Brute Strike. If healing surges are precious, and you can get clerical healing after the fight, spending a healing surge is not so great (I explain this more on one of my blog entries).

I agree with an earlier poster that, at heroic level, Bastion of Defense seems generally more useful than Lead the Attack. But Lead the Attack is one of those weird powers that gets better and better as you gain levels.

I think Acid Arrow is overrated compared to the other wizard powers. Sleep seems better – if you target multiple monsters, there is a good chance one of them will fall asleep and die soon after. Acid Arrow is just a pedestrian attack with a weak and hard to use area effect. It seems more than two steps inferior to a potent area effect spell like Freezing Cloud.

__________________
Come read my game design/analysis blog at: http://gamedesignfanatic.blogspot.com

[keterys]

Yeah, I'm not sure what to do/say on the solo/elite equation where certain powers completely thrash a single combatant, but require that enemy persist. When I started playing solos were actually fairly common, but since I started the game and fought about four in like four adventures, then I think I've only fought... two... since then. In like another thirty adventures.

[Evilhalfling]

B Echos of Guardian
B+ Slayers Song
A+ Stirring Shout
B- Verse of Triumph

B Aspect of Might
B+ Oath of Final Duel
B Renewing Strike
B Temple of Light

B Bloodhunt Rage
A+ Macetail Rage
A+ Rage Drake Rage
C+ Swift Panther Rage

A Faerie Fire
A Fires of Life
B+ Savage Fenzy
B+ Wind Prison

A Angelic Echelon
A Binding Chains
B Purging Flame
B Summon Angle of Fire

A- Blessing of 7 Winds
B Cleansing Wind of North
A Spirit of Healing Flood
A Wrath of Spirit World

A- Chromatic Orb
A Dazzling Ray
B- Dragonfang Bolt
B Lighting Breath

B Form of Willow Sentinel
A+ Form of Winter’s Herald
A- Form of Relentless Panther
B+ Form of Fearsome Ram

Standouts: Stirring Shout, Form of Winters Herald, Macetail Rage and Rage Drake Frenzy
Discussion ?

[Stalker0]

Originally Posted by keterys

I know less people are checking this out, but if anyone has any feedback on the daily 15s please try to get them in soon so I can factor things in easily.

Keterys I think the thread has gotten so large that's its intimidating for new posters (I know I rarely join a page 5+ thread unless i've been involved in the discussion).

It might be time to post a new thread with all of the results you've collected, and then start hitting the 15+ level powers.

[keterys]

Maybe each level gets its own analysis and feeds back to an original - that might be simpler to tackle.

EvilHalfling your grades seem... very high. I unfortunately haven't analyzed the powers to a great extent, but I can say that the invoker dailies, for instance, are not all that impressive. Not bad, certainly, but saying Binding Chains or Angelic Echelon is roughly equivalent to, say, Spirit of the Healing Flood seems a bit odd.

[Stalker0]

Originally Posted by keterys

Maybe each level gets its own analysis and feeds back to an original - that might be simpler to tackle.

I think the organization is fine, its just time to clean up the discussion, post the results, and then do more discussing. I wouldn't break up your threads more than you already have (daily, encounter, at will).

You have 7 pages worth of discussion that goes into your results, that's very good. If the next thread builds up another 7 pages of discussion, boil it down, and do it again. Having a big debate on all the powers of the game is a big job afterall!!