Grading Daily Powers - Page 8

**Plane Sailing** · 7th April 2009, 01:05 PM

Might be worth breaking it into PHB1 vs PHB2 for the encounters and dailies though

keterys · 7th April 2009, 05:18 PM

Yeah, I definitely agree there. Looks like I'd gotten a decent chunk through the daily 19s before I got grabbed for a few other projects... hmm. I guess easier to hold onto those and redo what's in these threads with a more sane explanation for grading and some suggested changes as I go. I might start with at-wills though, since it's easier to get some sense of closure there

Ulthwithian · 7th April 2009, 07:18 PM

I'd certainly be willing to assist you on the At-Wills for PHB2 (and presumably the Swordmage as well).

ChristopherA · 10th April 2009, 04:12 PM

I wrote up my estimate of level 5:

A+: Consecrated Ground
A: Rain of Steel, Stinking Cloud
B+: Stand the Fallen
B+: Bigby’s Icy Grasp
B+: Spiritual Weapon, Weapon of the Gods
B: Fireball, Hallowed Circle, Hunger of Hadar
B-: Avernian Eruption
B-: Dizzying Blow, Frenzied Skirmish
C+: Sign of Vulnerability, Splintering Shot, Two-Wolf Pounce, Deep Cut, Villain’s Nightmare, Web
C: Excruciating Shot, Clever Riposte
C: Crack the Shell, Walking Wounded
C-: Rune of Peace, Martyr’s Retribution
D: Crown of Madness, Curse of the Bloody Fangs, Turning Point

I think your rating of Martyr’s Retribution is inconsistent with the rest of your rating system. Normally you don't rate too highly for powers with high damage, but this power has just a slightly high damage with a penalty and you are rating it in the B category. You ranked it higher than Excruciating Shot, which does only 1W less damage and has a useful advantage instead of a significant disadvantage. And it certainly isn't remotely close to Jaws of the Wolf, which does significantly more damage, doesn't have a disadvantage, and is lower level.

Although Spiritual Weapon and Weapon of the Gods are very good compared to most level 5 powers, I couldn't really put them in the A category, they just don't seem to totally unbalance the fight like Flaming Sphere or Rain of Steel.

Fireball is weak by the standard of Wizard spells (for the classes to be balanced, controllers have to have better powers than other classes to make up for the low hit points and limited class features). But by the standard of other classes, I think the incredible area would make it a very solid damage-dealing power.

The usefulness of a group healing power like Stand the Fallen depends on how your DM chooses to distribute the monsters’ attacks. In my campaign you can often find that at least 3 characters need healing, so Stand the Fallen rocks.

__________________
Come read my game design/analysis blog at: http://gamedesignfanatic.blogspot.com

keterys · 10th April 2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristopherA

I wrote up my estimate of level 5:

I think your rating of Martyr’s Retribution is inconsistent with the rest of your rating system. Normally you don't rate too highly for powers with high damage, but this power has just a slightly high damage with a penalty and you are rating it in the B category. You ranked it higher than Excruciating Shot, which does only 1W less damage and has a useful advantage instead of a significant disadvantage. And it certainly isn't remotely close to Jaws of the Wolf, which does significantly more damage, doesn't have a disadvantage, and is lower level.

I rated it a B-, because it does 4W radiant damage and I don't consider a defender spending a healing surge more than a tiny disadvantage. If it wasn't radiant, I would have rated it a C+. As is, I'm probably fine with it being bumped down to C+.

Quote:

Although Spiritual Weapon and Weapon of the Gods are very good compared to most level 5 powers, I couldn't really put them in the A category, they just don't seem to totally unbalance the fight like Flaming Sphere or Rain of Steel.

There was significant discussion of the effects of these two powers earlier in the thread, if it helps. Mostly it's a synergy question and they're, in their own way, just as useful. It's probably reasonable to drop SW to an A-, however, due to the action exhaustion it can set in. WotG's minor action and ability to put on someone else's weapon (such as the Tempest Fighter who has Rain of Steel going, while he wades through undead) still makes it a solid A.

Quote:

Fireball is weak by the standard of Wizard spells (for the classes to be balanced, controllers have to have better powers than other classes to make up for the low hit points and limited class features).

Which is a sad design decision in a system that allows power swapping, and especially once proven untrue by things like Firestorm

Quote:

But by the standard of other classes, I think the incredible area would make it a very solid damage-dealing power.

I think it actually started higher but got campaigned down a grade by PlaneSailing. That said, its damage truly is uninspiring for daily powers - I do agree that it looks out of place at C+ on the list. I'll try and go back over the discussion of it later.

Quote:

The usefulness of a group healing power like Stand the Fallen depends on how your DM chooses to distribute the monsters’ attacks. In my campaign you can often find that at least 3 characters need healing, so Stand the Fallen rocks.

Yep - we agreed on the rating for that one

If anything it could be higher, but I think it's in a safe spot.

Quote:

A+: Consecrated Ground
A: Rain of Steel, Stinking Cloud
B+: Stand the Fallen
B+: Bigby’s Icy Grasp
B+: Spiritual Weapon, Weapon of the Gods
B: Fireball, Hallowed Circle, Hunger of Hadar
B-: Avernian Eruption
B-: Dizzying Blow, Frenzied Skirmish
C+: Sign of Vulnerability, Splintering Shot, Two-Wolf Pounce, Deep Cut, Villain’s Nightmare, Web
C: Excruciating Shot, Clever Riposte
C: Crack the Shell, Walking Wounded
C-: Rune of Peace, Martyr’s Retribution
D: Crown of Madness, Curse of the Bloody Fangs, Turning Point

Looking for ones we disagreed notably on... (your grade then mine listed)

Rune of Peace: C- vs. C+

You think it's really so bad? Weapon attack vs Will makes it very accurate, and it does neuter an elite or solo for a round. I mean, I agree that it's not _good_

Spiritual Weapon: B+ vs. A
Weapon of the Gods: B+ vs. A

Talked about above.

Crack the Shell: C vs. C+
Dizzying Blow: B- vs. C+

Damage is basically equivalent so it's -2 AC (save ends) vs. immobilized (save ends), and generally I consider melee immobilize much less powerful than ranged immobilized. Not sure I see as sharp a difference between the two as you did.

Martyr's Retribution: C- vs. B-

I think the big difference is that you consider a healing surge a significant cost here.

Sign of Vulnerability: C+ vs. B+

Hmm, so effectively it's trying for +5 damage to all my attacks and all the attacks from a friend probably... but I think I rated this slightly too high due to the Solo factor. Still, I suspect you rated it too low.

Frenzied Skirmish: B- vs. B+

Two attacks that daze on hit with a better-than-shift of your speed in between seems stronger than baseline, no?

Splintering Shot: C+ vs. B+

Permanent attack roll penalties, even on a miss, are very serious business on an elite or solo, but I probably rated it slightly high based on a theory that solos are more likely than they apparently should be. Still, I think it should be higher than C+.

Two-Wolf Pounce: C+ vs. B+

This is very good damage output with two shift 2s thrown in for good measure... I take it you're not rating damage output well at all?

Villain's Nightmare: C+ vs. C-

Y'know, I think you're right here. 3W vs. Reflex, no miss damage, but wacky interrupt thing is probably worth at least some combat advantage or an opportunity attack.

Bigby's Icy Grasp: B+ vs. B-

Hmm, this seems strong - Bigby's uses up an awful lot of actions and has never appeared all that strong except when it was ruled poorly such that you can deal both attack and sustain damage in the same round on the same target. And even then, eh. Maybe others have seen it be more impressive - its grab effect is at least limiting, if not as powerful as a true immobilize. That said, I might bump mine up to a B either way.

Fireball: B vs. C+

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this will get bumped back up... I think it mostly lost points on 'But, Fireball is supposed to be cooler'

Web: C+ vs. C-

As a heroic tier ranged immobilize I should probably bump this up to your rating. I haven't seen as many uses to immobi-stun melee-only monsters in my games as much as others seem to, but the monster manual certainly backs it up as more powerful.

Mengu · 10th April 2009, 08:14 PM

I'll take a stab at PHB2 Daily 1's.

Avenger
B+ / Aspect of Might
C- / Oath of Final Duel
B- / Renewing Strike
B / Temple of Light

Barbarian
B+ / Bloodhunt Rage
B / Macetail Rage
B- / Rage Drake Rage
C- / Swift Panther Rage

Bard
B / Echos of Guardian
B+ / Slayers Song
B / Stirring Shout
C+ / Verse of Triumph

Druid
B / Faerie Fire
B / Fires of Life
C / Savage Fenzy
B / Wind Prison

Invoker
B / Angelic Echelon
C / Binding Invocation of Chains
C / Purging Flame
B+ / Summon Angle of Fire

Shaman
B+ / Blessing of 7 Winds
B / Cleansing Wind of North
A- / Spirit of Healing Flood
B / Wrath of the Spirit World

Sorcerer
B- / Chromatic Orb
C+ / Dazzling Ray
C / Dragonfang Bolt
B+ / Lighting Breath

Warden
B- / Form of Fearsome Ram
B / Form of Relentless Panther
C+ / Form of Willow Sentinel
A- / Form of Winter’s Herald

Lots of B's, some C's, very few A's. Nothing at the level of Armor of Agathys. Some of these are difficult to judge because they require a certain composition of opponents (or group members, or terrain) to be effective. And some of them, eventhough I rated low, I felt were good powers for covering a weakness if needed for the character or for the group.

keterys · 10th April 2009, 08:38 PM

Cool. One caught my eye as interesting - I actually just swapped out angel of fire from my invoker to angelic echelon after finding angel of fire extremely disappointing. Why did you rate it so highly?

Basically I found that it's not really all that useful for its standard action - its opportunity attacks are fine but not spectacular, and it's very easy to kill.

Mengu · 10th April 2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keterys

Cool. One caught my eye as interesting - I actually just swapped out angel of fire from my invoker to angelic echelon after finding angel of fire extremely disappointing. Why did you rate it so highly?

Basically I found that it's not really all that useful for its standard action - its opportunity attacks are fine but not spectacular, and it's very easy to kill.

As I mentioned earlier, this is one of those highly group dependent ones. For instance, in the group I'm playing with, we have no trouble giving each other flanks, and controlling the battle field. So I would be tempted to rate it as a low priority power. But in the group I'm running for, they have lots of trouble with both, so this daily power would be almost better than Flaming Sphere. They also have 2.5 defenders who would be able to keep attackers off the angel fairly easily, while the angel provides them and the ranger with flanks where needed.

Group size also factors into the value of the power. In a group of 3 or 4, having another target for enemies to attack is awesome, in a group of 6 or 7, not so much.

keterys · 10th April 2009, 08:58 PM

Fair enough - if I'd been in a group of 4 with a rogue without much support instead of in a group of 6 with no rogue... yeah, I can see that making a big difference.

ChristopherA · 11th April 2009, 05:46 PM

In response to your questions about my ratings:

Rune of Peace: I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I figured that "cannot attack" is maybe three times as good as weaken. And weaken isn't that great. The power is accurate, but doesn't do half damage on a miss, so you are paying a lot of damage for the special effect. And the monster gets to take total defense for a round (annoying if he is a solo who already has great defenses).

Crack the Shell/Dizzying Blow: I rate ongoing damage 5 as only about 1W, because the delay in causing the damage is a significant nuisance, plus a few monsters have special saving throw powers. The -2 AC only helps weapon fighting allies and probably lasts a very short time, if the monsters saves you can't even take advantage of it yourself without an action point. Whereas Dizzying Blow gives at least one round of immobilization, maybe more, which seems like a strong control effect.

Sign of Vulnerability: There are just a number of little things I don't like too much. The implement attacks don't seem to great for a paladin - your implement is rarely used so it probably has a lower magic bonus than your sword, it only has range 5 but forces you to leave melee combat or face opportunity attacks, it goes against fortitude (the strongest monster defense) making it less accurate than your bastard sword, it rolls d8 instead of d10 for your bastard sword. It limits your tactical choices (you have to fixate on the monster, the party has to avoid killing it). Even if it works, you probably get no more than an average of 3 more hits (+15 damage) unless it is a solo. You have to use radiant attacks - many of the good paladin attacks are not radiant. The only radiant at-will is Holy Smite - and that is Str-based, while this power is Cha-based, so you probably aren't good at one or the other. Unless you are a balanced Str/Cha paladin, in which case your Wis is low and Holy Smite is a weak power. Now I'm starting to think I overrated this power.

Frenzied Skirmish: I actually like this power quite a bit, but it doesn't cause any effect on a miss, hence the mediocre rating.

Splintering Shot: I was rating based on the way I clustered my powers, and I didn't like it quite as much as the powers I put above it. You are right, looked at by itself it is pretty cool, maybe I should have put it B-.

Two-Wolf Pounce: I figure that the barbarian rage strike for this level - 4W, half damage on miss - is sort of the "average mediocre" C+ power. Mentally I add 1W for each attack, so this is 5W. For doing half damage on miss, make this 7W. Two wolf pounce does 5W over 3 attacks, so I think 8W. But some of the attacks are "off-hand" (which is -2 per die for your dwarven urgrosh), and the last attack doesn't add your stat bonus. So maybe 7W. I don't really count the in-between shift as a real bonus, since you are constrained to use it to find a secondary target. The first shift is quite nice. But the fact that you have to find a secondary target, and attacks against a secondary target aren't as good as attacks against you main target, is a penalty. So overall, I'm thinking this power is only average.

Bigby's Icy Grasp: This is much more accurate and damaging than spiritual weapon, and seriously harasses a foe with grabbing. And if you hit, the target loses a whole action escaping and moving, or doesn't move, in which case you don't have to spend a move action to make another attack! So this seems like a good quality (but not A-class) conjuration, one that can add up to a ton of damage and harassment over the course of a fight, and is thus superior to a single-shot power from a regular class.

Web: This is much too weird to get a good grasp on, so I don't have a strong opinion. It is sort of obscure, so perhaps I overrated it. But my observation is that if the opponents are hand-to-hand and they are on the other side of a corridor or narrow room, it can really cost the monsters a lot of actions to get past it.

hong · 11th April 2009, 05:59 PM

Rune of Peace deserves an A just for comedy value.

keterys · 11th April 2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristopherA

In response to your questions about my ratings

Thanks! I'll incorporate this feedback in when I redo the post in the hopefully not too distant future

Evilhalfling · 12th April 2009, 04:59 PM

Mengu I think you have underrated several of the powers:
Stirring Shout used against an elite or Solo is amazing.
An effect that generates healing for every party member that hits, based on a primary stat? use dual strike get x2 hp, use an AP, get more hp....
This single handily turned a hard dragon fight at 1st level into a cakewalk.

Macetail rage does much the same for the barbarian, its not a lot of damage up front, but makes the Barbarian much harder to kill.

I did overrate some of the powers. fires of life, and angel of fire have tested out as less useful than expected. Ill revise some of my scores.

Evilhalfling · 12th April 2009, 06:52 PM

my rankings, Mengus :
< revised my ranking down, > revised up

B, B+ Aspect of Might
B+,C- Oath of Final Duel
B, B- Renewing Strike
B, B Temple of Light

B, B Echos of Guardian
B, B+ Slayers Song
A+,B- Stirring Shout
B-,C+ Verse of Triumph

B+, B+ Bloodhunt Rage : > the high initial damage and potential to shorten fights, is making this look better
A-, B Macetail Rage: < temp HP easy to get for barb, low initial damage
A, B- Rage Drake Rage
C+, C- Swift Panther Rage

A, B Faerie Fire
A-, B Fires of Life: < only a AB1, in most cases will hit 2 opponents, and rarely kill any.
B+, C Savage Fenzy
B+, B Wind Prison

B, B Angelic Echelon: < orginally overrated.
C+, C Binding Chains: < good area, but 0 damage for a daily?
B, C Purging Flame
B, B+ Summon Angle of Fire: < dies easily, damage comparable to at-will.

A-, B+ Blessing of 7 Winds
B, B Cleansing Wind of North
A, A- Spirit of Healing Flood
B, B Wrath of Spirit World

A-,B- Chromatic Orb
B+,C+ Dazzling Ray , < lots of damage but just dull.
B-, C Dragonfang Bolt
B, B Lighting Breath

B,B Form of Willow Sentinel
A+, A+ Form of Winter’s Herald
B+, A- Form of Relentless Panther : < not comparatively great
B+,B+ Form of Fearsome Ram

Standouts: Stirring Shout, Form of Winters Herald.

yesnomu · 12th April 2009, 10:08 PM

I don't think Rage Drake's is really that great for the Barb. You're talking about maybe one or two extra attacks per encounter, unless you're being swarmed by minions (and then you're getting away from the striker's job). It could be handy for a Rageblood if your DM let you make the attack after Swift Charge, but that requires DM adjucation. And it's totally useless against solos, too.

I also think the mobility of Swift Panther's is being underrated, but if you have Pressing Strike you can normally get where you need to be anyway.

Mengu · 12th April 2009, 10:24 PM

I'll try to comment on the grades that we had more than 1 click off (the difference between a B and a B+ I'll let Keterys decide, we're ballparking most of these powers any way, and the powers can easily become more or less powerful situationally).

Quote: