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At the end of the day, PS, Fireball deals as much damage as the other area powers at that level to a huge area at huge range.
It's no Stinking Cloud, but neither are most powers that level. Stuff like Consecrated Ground and Stinking Cloud don't make other things failures. They just make it really easy to pick out the 'As'
The thing is, 9 times out of 10 the huge area is a limitation rather than a benefit. People get hung up on "Wow, 49 squares!" without asking themselves how often there are enough things that can get in it.
By the grading system you set out:
Quote:
B - Good. This is a solid power. Most powers should fall into this grade.
C - Okay. This power is certainly adequate but pales somewhat in comparison to other powers.
D - Poor. This power is certainly usable (and may even excel in certain rare situations), but is definitely lacking compared to other options.
personally I'd give it a D. Usable and may excel in certain rare situations, but definitely lacking. I don't see how it could be rated better than some form of C though. A solid power? I don't think so. Every time I've seen it used it has been relatively feeble. It is a power doomed to always have considerable potential.
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
It's easy to hit 3 targets with it. It does 1.5 or 2W damage (2d10 equivalent). Compare it to W-based area options at 5th or 9th, and it's looking quite good.
It's not a great power. It's not even impressive. I wouldn't recommend it over other choices.
Fireball is a weird one. I don't recommend it to anyone, and the wizard in my game lives for fireball. The huge are is not too much of a disadvantage because in close quarters you can pretty much confine it to as small as a 4x4 area. Placed in a 4x7, it can attack the front and back ranks of the enemy, without catching any allies (that you care about). If you get a good string of rolls, or have Action Surge or some other temporary bonus, it can really ease up a big encounter with many opponents (which is the purpose of a wizard daily power).
I don't think it's a power to be underestimated, BUT, it is situational, requires a certain type of encounter to be useful in, and compared to sustainable affects or whole encounter duration powers, it is simply not as versatile. I'd keep at around a C (+/- doesn't really matter too much). I definitely couldn't give it a B, just looking at the other powers that are getting B's.
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Last edited by Mengu; 14th April 2009 at 07:54 PM..
So, it's clearly worse than Hunger of Hadar (B+) which itself is clearly worse than Stinking Cloud (A)... but compare to Avernian Eruption (C+) - Fireball's damage is comparable, and it's area is tripled and its range is doubled.
Maybe almost all of the damage powers are off, though...
I have to admit, stuff like Rain of Steel and Stinking Cloud and Consecrated Ground make everything look silly.
Last edited by keterys; 14th April 2009 at 07:58 PM..
So, it's clearly worse than Hunger of Hadar (B+) which itself is clearly worse than Stinking Cloud (A)... but compare to Avernian Eruption (C+) - Fireball's damage is comparable, and it's area is tripled and its range is doubled.
Maybe almost all of the damage powers are off, though...
I have to admit, stuff like Rain of Steel and Stinking Cloud and Consecrated Ground make everything look silly.
Avernian Eruption definitely does more damage, extra ongoing 5 fire has expected value of a bit less than 10 damage, and you might get a curse target in there, hit or miss you're doing extra damage to. Plus it's a control/striking power for a striker, which adds a little extra to its value. Fireball does do something Avernian Eruption can't, and that's to catch creatures in a bigger net, but that doesn't necessarily make it better, it just changes the timing of when you would use a Fireball vs Avernian Eruption. I don't see anything wrong with both powers graded as C (+/-).
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ongoing 5 damage != 10 unless you have save penalties to attach to the effect, and even then damage delayed 1 or 2 turns is less valuable than damage now.
Avernian's base damage is the same as Fireball's, but with no miss damage. Miss damage may not seem like much, but it has a large effect on average damage all the same.
Curse damage does not apply to ongoing damage or to misses, just to hits, so no... their damage is functionally equivalent. The only way to bring Fireball back to Avernian's level is to assume that increased burst size is a _penalty_, which is downright silly.
Fwiw, I'm not opposed to Fireball being a C+ - it just means I need to take a more grim look at the other powers of that level most likely
But, after posting the at-wills. They're all rewritten now and I just need to finish rereading the thread and see if it's at all viable to put the grades into the wiki for others to maintain, then I can start looking at fixing the dailies
ongoing 5 damage != 10 unless you have save penalties to attach to the effect, and even then damage delayed 1 or 2 turns is less valuable than damage now.
Yeah, that's why I said a bit less than 10 (because of the 45% chance, and the fact that combat will never last an infinite number of rounds).
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
Avernian's base damage is the same as Fireball's, but with no miss damage. Miss damage may not seem like much, but it has a large effect on average damage all the same.
Oops, I missed that Avernian doesn't do half damage, that's pretty stinky. Ok, we'll call it comparable damage.
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The thing is, 9 times out of 10 the huge area is a limitation rather than a benefit. People get hung up on "Wow, 49 squares!" without asking themselves how often there are enough things that can get in it.
By the grading system you set out:
personally I'd give it a D. Usable and may excel in certain rare situations, but definitely lacking. I don't see how it could be rated better than some form of C though. A solid power? I don't think so. Every time I've seen it used it has been relatively feeble. It is a power doomed to always have considerable potential.
Sure, the area is deceptive, 49 squares certainly isn't 5 times as useful as 9 squares, especially when you have to worry about hitting your friends. But all that matters is how good the power actually is. It is very easy to catch 3 foes in the fireball, and then your average damage is already significantly better than a B damage power like Two-Wolf Pounce. And sometimes, you will fire it off at the start of a fight and catch 4 enemies and 4 mininons in the blast, and really soften up the opponents. Fireball is more effective at dealing damage than any other non-A power at this level.
Fireball feels kind of depressing because you are typically firing it at full-health opponents, and it has no immediate effect at all on the game, or really even much of a short term effect. All it does is make you win the combat more quickly. But what else can you ask from a game-balanced area effect damage spell?
Whoops, missed that. Whose bright idea was it to use two words that start with b and end with st?
I remember making that same complaint a little over a year ago - I don't remember what alternates I suggested. Maybe radius for burst? Or... something... for blast, since blast is a much more generically used attack term?
I remember making that same complaint a little over a year ago - I don't remember what alternates I suggested. Maybe radius for burst? Or... something... for blast, since blast is a much more generically used attack term?
I think 'cone' would have done the job nicely for blast.
Burst and Cone.
Or use 'spread' instead of burst.
While they were at it, they could have given bursts (spreads) as a diameter rather than a radius, thus making it clear that 'blast 3' and 'burst 1' are actually the same area.
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
What are folks' feelings on Summoning type Dailies? At least for lower levels, have to trade your own attack for the Summons' generally pretty weak attack isn't that great. The main benefit is to have the Summon soaking up some extra attacks and that you don't have to sustain it every round if you need your minor action for something else.
I'd have a hard time rating them all that high, but perhaps experience from actual play says differently.
A+ Unyielding Avalance, Wall of Ice
A Prismatic Beams, Bigby’s Grasping Hands, Tendrils of Thuban
A- Seal of Warding, Confounding Arrows, Stunning Steel, Renew the Troops, Purifying Fire
B+ Blast of Cold, Garrotte Grip
B Bleeding Wounds, Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere
B- True Nemesis, Holy Spark, Blade Cascade
C+ Dragon Fangs
C Thirsting Maw, Serpent Dance Strike
C- Bloody Path, Slaying Strike, Fireswarm
D Warlord’s Gambit, Bloodied Retribution, Break the Wall, Make them Bleed
NA Curse of the Golden Mist
Wow, the powers at level 15 seem to take a big jump over level 9. If I were rating the barbarian rage strike (6W / half miss), I would put it below C-.
Comments:
Bigby’s Grasping Hands: Yes, this is a ridiculous action hog. But the upside potential is so huge, you don’t have to keep this up for that long to be causing a massive amount of damage plus immobilization.
Blade Cascade: This power is just asking to be minimaxed (I can’t believe it used to have no limit to the number of attacks!). But I don’t care too much, as you say keterys, it isn’t particularly effective most of the time.
Blast of Cold: I think this power is getting the “fireball effect” of seeming weak compared to the other wizard powers. Enemies-only area effects are great. You can do lots of damage and immobilize lots of enemies, with save ends to boot. The one big drawback is that some wizards might be too vulnerable to get anywhere near the battlefield. But my “figher/magic-user” wizard would love it (except that prismatic beams is far better).
Bleeding Wounds: This seems to be the most powerful single target damage power at this level, so maybe that counts for a lot. But compared to the other powers, it doesn’t seem A-level to me. Seems not as good as the far greater damage output of prismatic beams, or the stunning ability of confounding arrows.
Curse of the Golden Mist: I agree, this power is just wrong. Seems like something which, in a given fight, will either be useless or abusive. In ordinary combat situations, I think the former is much more likely.
Serpent Dance Strike: I can’t see this being rated that high. Yes, you could potentially get 4 attacks, but that is only because this is sort of a limited area effect, and we aren’t rating area attacks as being 3 or 4 times as powerful as single target attacks. Compare to blast of cold: much less damage, much less control effect, and no damage on a miss.
Garrotte Grip: Hard to judge, but three rounds seems like a long time.
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere, Wall of Ice: I’m just guessing, hard to judge without seeing them in action.
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