Can a Grabbed Target Make Attacks?

[The_Universe]

I'm sure this has already been determined by numerous others, but I'm not having any luck.

Based on the way I'm reading the effects of the Grab action, a grabbed target is Immobilized...but still able to freely attack the creature that grabbed it, or even other, adjacent creatures. Is that right?

If so, is there really any beneft to grabbing somebody?

[mattdm]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Based on the way I'm reading the effects of the Grab action, a grabbed target is Immobilized...but still able to freely attack the creature that grabbed it, or even other, adjacent creatures. Is that right?

Right.

If so, is there really any beneft to grabbing somebody?

Sure — they can't move! That can be huge.

I think it's deliberately meant to not be a general-case representation of unarmed combat, specifically to avoid the debacle that was 3.xE grapple. It's there to represent what happens in cases where you do want to hold someone for whatever reason. (My players used it to keep an enemy scout from running away.)

Also, some monsters (crocodiles, for example, or mind flayers) have powers that work specially on grabbed targets.

[Shroomy]

There was a lot of benefit to those bleeping stirges that grabbed my character the other night. 5 extra damage every round and a +5 bonus to Reflex and AC; luckily, I fey step'd out of there before it got too hairy.

[frankthedm]

Originally Posted by mattdm

I think it's deliberately meant to not be a general-case representation of unarmed combat, specifically to avoid the debacle that was 3.xE grapple.

I also think it's deliberately meant to not be a "screw over the lone foe" effect grapple rules far too often are.

[babinro]

The target is essentially only denied their move action and needs to make use of it to get out of the grab. I personally don't care for the new grab simply because it seems too forgiving.

I don't really see how a grabbed for could still attack accurately with a longbow without any penalties...or a maul. Grab should probably also apply penalties to attack roles (standard -2 would probably suffice)..or possibly limit the weapons that can be used. I agree that the 3.x rules were unnecessarily confusing though. A happy medium would probably be best.

[The_Universe]

Alright. That's what I thought. Unfortunate.

I agree with those who feel that the Grab is too forgiving (and far too easy to escape from)! My players attempted numerous time to Grab their enemies last night, and, even when and if they were successful, the enemies were able to Escape unharmed (and not even seriously inconvenienced) immediately upon their turns.

It seems statistically strange...characters must make a strength attack to initiate the Grab, but the Grabbed target gets to use a skill (and the accordingly higher modifier) to escape! Unless you simply accept that you've been Grabbed, it seems there's almost no circumstance where someone or something could be Grabbed for more than half a round!

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Alright. That's what I thought. Unfortunate.

I agree with those who feel that the Grab is too forgiving (and far too easy to escape from)! My players attempted numerous time to Grab their enemies last night, and, even when and if they were successful, the enemies were able to Escape unharmed (and not even seriously inconvenienced) immediately upon their turns.

It seems statistically strange...characters must make a strength attack to initiate the Grab, but the Grabbed target gets to use a skill (and the accordingly higher modifier) to escape! Unless you simply accept that you've been Grabbed, it seems there's almost no circumstance where someone or something could be Grabbed for more than half a round!

Grabbing is mostly useful if you really don't want your foe to escape, or if you have special abilities keyed off from grabbing/immobilizing.
Anyone not trained in Athletics or Acrobatics will still have a hard time escaping, even front-line fighters - for example a "Protecting Paladin" build.

Overall, grabbing is as weak or strong as Bullrush, I think. Maybe that is too forgiving? Maybe we just need a few more powers or feats keyed off grabbing/immobilizing.

It is a big shift from 3E, where Grapple was the uber-combat option for larger foes and it seemed as if every second monster or more had Improved Grab.

[Nebulous]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Alright. That's what I thought. Unfortunate.

I agree with those who feel that the Grab is too forgiving (and far too easy to escape from)! My players attempted numerous time to Grab their enemies last night, and, even when and if they were successful, the enemies were able to Escape unharmed (and not even seriously inconvenienced) immediately upon their turns.

It seems statistically strange...characters must make a strength attack to initiate the Grab, but the Grabbed target gets to use a skill (and the accordingly higher modifier) to escape! Unless you simply accept that you've been Grabbed, it seems there's almost no circumstance where someone or something could be Grabbed for more than half a round!

Agreed that it's a little weak. And what happens when 4 zombies grab the same person? I guess it's just a +2 modifier to the DC per zombie.

I think though as 4e expands, more powers will start to stack onto the relatively simple "base grab" to make it more complex...maybe even as tricky as the 3.x grapple was.

But yeah, as written, you basically just lose a move action, although that can be pretty devastating in the right circumstances.

[Nail]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Based on the way I'm reading the effects of the Grab action, a grabbed target is Immobilized...but still able to freely attack the creature that grabbed it, or even other, adjacent creatures. Is that right?

Yep.

"Exception-based design", remember? If it doesn't say it, it ain't so.

Originally Posted by The_Universe

If so, is there really any beneft to grabbing somebody?

For PCs? Not really.

For monsters - like minions - grabbing might allow the rest to surround the PC.

[Saeviomagy]

Grabbing is pretty bad, UNLESS you have a power to boost it. The rogue powers stab and grab and garrotte make grabbing a lot better.

Personally I'm glad that characters never stop being able to play even when grabbed, restrained and swallowed by gelatinous cubes.

[Mengu]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

characters must make a strength attack to initiate the Grab, but the Grabbed target gets to use a skill (and the accordingly higher modifier) to escape!

There is only a bonus to escape if the grabbed target is trained in the skill they are trying to use to escape. Otherwise, the grab and the escape should have about the same bonus, stat plus half level vs Reflex or Fortitude. Most monsters are not trained in Athletics or Acrobatics. PC's have the slight upper hand escaping a grab at low levels, though at high levels that upper hand slowly diminishes.

[WizarDru]

Grabbing does seem pretty weak, but it has its advantages. We played our final session of "Keep on the Shadowfell" on Saturday, and my fighter used grab to drag the BBEG out of his zone of healing so that the party could wail on him. Of course, due to the new grab, he was still free to club me over the head with his rod of ruin, but my strength made it so that he had virtually no chance of escaping.

If powers come out to enhance the grab manuever, then that would be suitable. Right now it feels pretty weak and the simplicity of the implementation is probably a victim of making grapple not a confusing mess.