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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
#1 I finally got a copy (okay borrowed). I like it a lot so far. Some of the issues raised here concern me, but I haven't gotten that far (and won't for a bit).
#2 There are some very powerful things in there. Most of which I suspect were not on purpose.
- Double sword. Not only does it grant a +1 AC modifier, but it looks to me like it stacks with two-handed weapon feats. Further, a rouge using it can take the heavy weapon feat that allows you to use an at-will as an attack of opportunity AND actually do so because it is also a light blade. I think this thing is now a rogue's (at least level 11+) best friend. CHR based rogues rejoice.
- Agile armor is very powerful, likely too powerful. Heavy blade fighters already have a good dex (15 by level 11, 17 by level 21). A 30th level fighter would LOVE that +3 AC bonus. And you aren't really giving anything up for it. Best AC is now 52 (for a heavy armor type) as far as I can tell.
agile armor is rated the highest of all armor powers (ie +4 to the base level)
and it does not function when bloodied, so that bonus to armor is going to let you down when you need it. What your giving up is other high value items that you could be using instead and the opportunity costs of other armor powers.
Also not as helpful for high int characters.
double swords, yeah they are just better.
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agile armor is rated the highest of all armor powers (ie +4 to the base level)
and it does not function when bloodied, so that bonus to armor is going to let you down when you need it. What your giving up is other high value items that you could be using instead and the opportunity costs of other armor powers.
Also not as helpful for high int characters.
That, and getting the bonus from agile armor requires a significant investment in stat points, if you're using point buy. The initial 14 costs 5 out of your 22 points. I know that a 15 Dex at paragon is also useful for some good feats, but the cost is there.
Heavy Blade Opportunity does require 15 STR. So for a Rogue to get it, they need to pretty much start with 14 STR. So, if they are going Charisma based to be able to get a great sly flourish, they have to take at least a small dip in their Charisma to get that high with strength [either they dip during build, or they dip at 4 or 8 by not going with bonuses to DEX and CHA.] Best case, is a drow [halfling can't wield the dual blade] going with 18 DEX, 17 CHA, 14 STR and 1 point left over. A Bugbear is able to go with 18 DEX, 16 CHA, 14 STR and 2 points left over.
In any case, you are giving up some charisma in exchange for the strength, so your sly flourish is a bit weaker than it could be. [In fact, you could even get 20 DEX and 16 with a drow, which has the same damage of sly flourish, while also increasing the chances of hitting with all of the rogues powers, increases the damage output of the rest, and increasing the rogues initiative, AC, reflex defense, etc]. If you go with a brutal scoundrel, you easily meet the strength prereq, but you have a high str so your basic melee attack is reasonably high anyway, and the extra damage from sly flourish is a bit lower as well.
So, it's a trade off. The more worrisome fact is basically that it's purely better than a rapier unless you are a halfling [or you need something in your off hand].
If you go with a brutal scoundrel, you easily meet the strength prereq, but you have a high str so your basic melee attack is reasonably high anyway, and the extra damage from sly flourish is a bit lower as well.
So, it's a trade off.
How is it a tradeoff for a brutal scoundrel? Clearly, it is just plain better than any other weapon for him without a single downside, since a brutal scoundrel won`t be using sly floorish as his primary attack anyway.
Even for an artful dodger, I wouldnt call it a tradeoff. Just because you have the opportunity to buy HBO, doesnt mean you have to do so and pum str at all cost (especially at heroic).
Don`t get me wrong, the 2 bladed sword isnt broken, but I do find it strange that it is now supposed to be THE rogue weapon.
It's a light blade, so a Rogue can use it effectively. The Double Sword does as much damage as a Rapier, but also counts as a Heavy Blade, and most importantly, has the Defensive property which gives you a bonus to AC.
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The Double Sword does as much damage as a Rapier, but also counts as a Heavy Blade, and most importantly, has the Defensive property which gives you a bonus to AC.
These are all very true, but you guys are forgetting about the double sword's other property:
Lame: Your character is in a word....lame. All other PCs gain the ability to call you names to your face, in character and out of character.
So with that in mind, I think its compares pretty well to the rapier
I was thinking that the primary end counts as a heavy blade and the secondary end counts as a light blade, so that you couldn't actually use Heavy Blade Opportunist and rogue powers at the same time.
Upon checking again, the book doesn't actually say that, though. It just assigns the weapon to both groups, and both ends are described as "longswords" and do d8 damage. Really not sure where the "light blade" factor comes in.
The urgrosh (which counts as both an axe and a spear) suggests that the "one end for each" idea is true for at least some double weapons, since one end is an axe head and the other a spearpoint. Presumably you can only use axe powers with the axe end and spear powers with the spear end.
Such a distinction does not apply as easily to the double sword, though it's possible to infer that the authors' intent is similar. How something can simultaneously be a heavy blade and a light blade, if the reference is not to the two distinct ends, I am not sure.
On the other hand weapon properties and powers only effect the main side, which is most probably the heavy blade side. Which means that the double weapon doesn't bestow those on the Rogue's powers
You two make very good points that a reasonnable non powergamer should make, but the double sword is symetrical...
Unfortunately I think they made it on purpose to be a medium blade counting as both heavy and light, which means you can now reckognize rogue class just by looking for double swords :P
Anyhow, I would advice people to read the box on page ten of the Adventurers Vault to read exactly how they work. I still think there are sufficient disadvantages that I wouldn't use it as a Rogue.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byronic
Anyhow, I would advice people to read the box on page ten of the Adventurers Vault to read exactly how they work. I still think there are sufficient disadvantages that I wouldn't use it as a Rogue.
Like what?
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Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
It's assumed by most here that characters are created using 22 pt buy.
__________________ Disclaimer--I do not think that anyone else plays the game "incorrectly," unless their players are not having fun. I am a "both/and" kind of guy, not an "either/or." However, I often explain what I like in a way that sounds like I'm saying my way is better, because it's easier to write that way and more fun. Also, s.
Like the fact that you only get a single weapon's magic property, which seems pretty oblivious to me too. Double swords = pwnage. I can now make tons of npc multiclassing with rogue because the primary thing that was annoying me was the light blade property that didnt fit anyhere, unfortunately they all need to be wielding double swords now .
Darkadelphia: If you wanna talk about it we can fork it to a new thread, but I really dont see the point of discussing that unless you want to make a poll on which fractions of the players risked the whole game balance by allowing different ability scores generation methods.
Anyhow, I would advice people to read the box on page ten of the Adventurers Vault to read exactly how they work. I still think there are sufficient disadvantages that I wouldn't use it as a Rogue.
Well strictly melee combat wise, I don`t see any.
But of course, there is the problem of carrying it around, chances are, you cant`t conceal it like a dagger
And, since you are not having the typical dagger off hand, you can`t switch to a throwing weapon in an instant... well not without quick draw at least.
As said before, my main gripe is not with the balance but with the flavor. You don`t allow the rogue to use a longsword, but two longswords glued together are just fine?
Anyhow, I would advice people to read the box on page ten of the Adventurers Vault to read exactly how they work. I still think there are sufficient disadvantages that I wouldn't use it as a Rogue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond, James Bond
Well strictly melee combat wise, I don`t see any.
But of course, there is the problem of carrying it around, chances are, you cant`t conceal it like a dagger
And, since you are not having the typical dagger off hand, you can`t switch to a throwing weapon in an instant... well not without quick draw at least.
As said before, my main gripe is not with the balance but with the flavor. You don`t allow the rogue to use a longsword, but two longswords glued together are just fine?
Hmm, let me explain what I meant.
1) The Double Sword is essentially a Heavy and Light Blade put together.
2) I believe that the heavy (let's say longsword) side is the "main" side of the Double Sword. The Light side is the secondary/off-hand side. Aka the side the rogue uses for almost all of her powers.
3) According to my interpretation of the text on page 10 the properties and special powers of the blade are solely on the primary/heavy side.
ergo, a Rogues powers or "exploits" will not work with the heavy side of the Double Sword. So if you have a Bloodthirsty Double Sword you wouldn't get +1 to hit and +x to damage when attacking bloodied opponents. Nor would you be able to use the Daily power on a Lightning Double Sword to cause AoE damage.
At least not with any power that requires a light blade.
But this is my own interpretation, that's why I simply directed people to the box of text. While I believe this to be the correct interpretation I just don't really feel like arguing it as a point.
I agree totally that the flavour is wrong for a rogue as well though that's more up to individual taste.
2) I believe that the heavy (let's say longsword) side is the "main" side of the Double Sword. The Light side is the secondary/off-hand side. Aka the side the rogue uses for almost all of her powers.
There is no text to indicate this in the slightest. The weapon as a whole is both a heavy and light blade, and both ends are counted as "off hand".
This might not be what was intended, but it's what is true.
The box text pretty much states that the double weapons are not for small creatures [they are effectively a single two handed weapon that acts as two off hand weapons].
The light/heavy blade concept is that, while it does the same damage as a long sword [or rapier] and has the same prof bonus, it isn't necessarily the same thing as the two taped together. Because it's a BIG weapon, but also one that needs to be balanced enough to be used like a quarterstaff, it has properties of BOTH heavy and light blades.
Also one thing about defensive ... it doesn't provide a bonus to reflex, which actual shields do.
s. 
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