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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
I'm a rogue now but I was hoping to be a ranger rogue.. is that possible? I'm assuming not since I can't find anything in the PHB, but I figure i might be overlooking something.
I'm a rogue now but I was hoping to be a ranger rogue.. is that possible? I'm assuming not since I can't find anything in the PHB, but I figure i might be overlooking something.
Yes and no. Multiclassing is now feat-based, and is not much like what you are used to.
Feat 1: gives you the ranger's Quarry as a single-round encounter power, and a ranger skill. Unlocks the other 3 feats.
Feat 2: available at level 4. You may substitute one rogue encounter power for a ranger encounter power of the same level. As you advance in levels you may change which power is substituted.
Feat 3: available at level 8. As feat 2, but for a utility power.
Feat 4: available at level 10. As feat 2, but for a daily power. Note that feats 2-4 are not prerequisites; you may take any or all of them once you have taken feat 1.
Paragon multiclassing: If you have taken all 4 multiclass feats you are eligible for this, which I have not read seriously since no character in any of our campaigns is over 3rd level. I get the impression that it lets you choose even more cross-class powers,a nd that most commenters feel it is less powerful than the regular paragon paths.
Basically at 11 you get the ability to swap one of your at-willswith an at-will power from the class you've gone into. For your example, you could get twin strike by giving up one of your rogue at-will attacks.
Also, at the levels you would normally get a paragon "power", you instead get an encounter, utility and daily respectively, chosen from the class list of [in your case] ranger, or lower level. [At 11, choose an encounter of 7 or less. At 12, choose a utility of 11 or less, at 20, choose a daily of 19 or less].
The biggest drawback is that, unlike a normal paragon path, you don't get the 11/16 effects, which ussually include a "bonus" when using action points.
Multiclassing does seem a little underpowered, especially given that aside from a few circumstances you now have another stat that needs to stay high. I am planning my current character to multiclass for flavor reasons. I can't imagine any powergamers multiclassing past taking the initial feat for the free stuff.
I imagine that the barbarian will be a prime paragon multiclass target, because his powers are the major source of his abilities, and are significantly more, ahem, powerful than other classes.
Also, multiclass feats (with exceptions like Ranger - so far) allow one to take a paragon path associated with the MC class. Which doesn't quite help you out right now, but may be useful once Martial Power comes out.
__________________ I think I've found some dice groups. Good stuff. This site said I have Str: 7, Dex: 11, Con: 8, Int: 13, Wis: 11, Cha: 15.
Just as an aside, multiclassing seems really disappointing on the surface, but there's some things to keep in mind...
1. You will always be your first class first and your multiclass second. A fighter/wizard is still a fighter, and a wizard/fighter is still a wizard.
2. That said, a power here or there actually does go a long way towards being that other class.
For example, let's say you're level 10. You've got 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 3 dailies and 3 utilities. If you've taken the 3 multiclass feats, fully a third of your limited powers are from your other class, and having an encounter power from that class means that you're guaranteed to act like that class at least once per encounter. Maybe even twice if your substitute utility is an encounter power.
At level 20, you've got 2 at-wills, 4 encounters, 4 dailies, and 5 utilities. 1 at-will, 2 encounters, 2 dailies, and 2 utilities are from your multiclass. In other words, almost half of your powers are from your second class.
So multiclassing, though it seems limited on the surface, really is very close to being half/half. Of course, you still only have the abilities of your primary class, so probably closer to 60/40.
There are a few downsides to multiclassing, though. First, it costs feats. You're spending feats on new options, but you've got the same overall number of powers. Second, paragon-level multiclassing means not getting a paragon path or its associated features.
Of course, multiclassing also allows you to take a paragon path from your multiclass, which might be a more attractive option. Then you're not sacrificing any features.
I'm runnign a huge game in which I don't particularly enjoy having npcs with the same built. I used to have around 300npcs (50 had complete sheets) before we switched to 4e, I now narrowed it down to 20 with complete sheets, and about 17 out of those 20 are multiclassed.
Multiclassing gives so much more depht to caracters and can give a very decent advantadges out or in combat as you now get much more combo powers. Of course almost next to nothing in the powers stack, but if you've got a zone power that hurts, try multiclassing to get a power that affects a large area and traps people in there. (just one of many examples)
I think it's really worth looking into.
EDIT: paragon multiclassing REALLY SUX
Last edited by HighTemplar; 8th October 2008 at 07:49 AM..
Please tell me you're not building your NPCs as PCs...
I mean, you're more than welcome to, but holy crap are you wasting a whole lot of efforts.
Build your NPCs just like any other monster. Give them abilities you think fit them. Thus you can make literally any concept you can think of, and with a tiny fraction of the work of making a fully-fledged PC (e.g. with the right tools you can easily make an NPC of any level in 5 minutes, and that's assuming you spend 3 of those minutes coming up with the concept...).
Multiclassing does seem a little underpowered, especially given that aside from a few circumstances you now have another stat that needs to stay high. I am planning my current character to multiclass for flavor reasons. I can't imagine any powergamers multiclassing past taking the initial feat for the free stuff.
Not quite true. Utility powers rarely require a stat and some "Attacks" don't, either. (Rain of Steel...)
Orb Wizards with that Swordmage Utility 6 are especially nasty.
Please tell me you're not building your NPCs as PCs...
I mean, you're more than welcome to, but holy crap are you wasting a whole lot of efforts.
Build your NPCs just like any other monster. Give them abilities you think fit them. Thus you can make literally any concept you can think of, and with a tiny fraction of the work of making a fully-fledged PC (e.g. with the right tools you can easily make an NPC of any level in 5 minutes, and that's assuming you spend 3 of those minutes coming up with the concept...).
Yes I actually do, and it dosent take that much time, plus I dont have to complete it up to a PC level, but even if unfinished, it's still a lot more complete and consequent then just some random NPC with unbalanced abilities.
I'm saying this is appropriate for the campaign i'm making, which is obviously NPC based. NPCs aren't just the villain of the week where they fight and say a coupple of punch-quotes and then die. They have agendas, they have political affinities and they want to live, so if they can, they run, and they come back with a plan(at least the smart ones).
On paper multiclassing doesn't seem terribly impressive. In actual play though, it seems to be a must have. The initial feat is overpowered in my mind since it grants too much. The others help fill in weaknesses or just power up what you're already used to.
Also, multiclassing in 4E to my experience has yet to lead to massive unbalancing of characters...which is good since 3E seems to allow that with great ease.
Multiclassing has proven very popular in my group. This may be a function of the relative dearth of impressive feats for many characters...
I agree that paragon multiclassing needs fixed. Just allowing that third (or fourth) at-will instead of replacing an old at-will seems like a good mini-fix. All they'd need is an action point ability, imho.
The only class which doesn't get much out of multiclassing is Cleric, methinks.
A high-strength cleric can get a lot of mileage out of a few Fighter abilities, I think. +1 to hit on something like Healing Strike can't be overlooked, either.
The cleric in my game multi'd to Warlord to get a third healing spell per encounter. Not bad for the cost of a feat!
I love it for the flavor bonuses. I have a player with an Elven Dark Pact Warlock with a few Infernal. He's going to start multiclassing to get Spellscarred powers.
What about a Tiefling Cleric of a good god who multiclasses with Warlock. He looks to cast radiant spell, but you suddenly see his spirit break a bit, his hands change from gold to black, and he unleashes some of his built-up infernal taint. 4e is great for creating a concept. You can't be a Fighter5/Cleric2/Wizard1, but you can be a Paladin who can chuck a magic missle. I like it better this way.
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Current PCs: Genasi Warlord 2 Human Fighter 2
Posts: 7,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obryn
A high-strength cleric can get a lot of mileage out of a few Fighter abilities, I think. +1 to hit on something like Healing Strike can't be overlooked, either.
The cleric in my game multi'd to Warlord to get a third healing spell per encounter. Not bad for the cost of a feat!
-O
Cleric(warlord) works. Warlord(cleric) does not work. (Darn Wis requirement....)
Wis is not a stat for Warlords. Str *is* a stat for (some) clerics.
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
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