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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
I've been wrestling with my GM a bit lately. Under the banner of "Story > Mechanics" he is refusing to use any pre-generated monster groups from the MM. This is not so much of a problem.
The problem is that he is taking monsters and giving them Class levels to adjust their CR.
A good example was last session when he took 12 Level 6 Brutte "Blackscale Bruiser" (MM 179), gave them all one level of Fighter and threw them against our level 5 party.
Monsters with Action Points and Encounter / Daily powers seemed crazy. The 3W damage daily power was doing 3d12 + 10, which is really deadly to a level 5 party.
Am I wrong in thinking that this isnt how it is supposed to be?
As I understood it, class templates tend to make foes into elites? I don't have my books with me to verify that, but I'm fairly certain.
With that comes an adjusted EXP cost for being elites, so what's happening is you're facing groups that outlevel you by an amazingly huge margin. You should be dying, probably in a few rounds.
I've been wrestling with my GM a bit lately. Under the banner of "Story > Mechanics" he is refusing to use any pre-generated monster groups from the MM. This is not so much of a problem.
The problem is that he is taking monsters and giving them Class levels to adjust their CR.
A good example was last session when he took 12 Level 6 Brutte "Blackscale Bruiser" (MM 179), gave them all one level of Fighter and threw them against our level 5 party.
Monsters with Action Points and Encounter / Daily powers seemed crazy. The 3W damage daily power was doing 3d12 + 10, which is really deadly to a level 5 party.
Am I wrong in thinking that this isnt how it is supposed to be?
Let me see if I understand this correctly...
When you say he gave them one level of fighter what do you mean? Because that's how it worked in 3e, not how it works in 4e.
When you add a class to an existing monster you are adding a template, not levels. It's more like adding a template in 3e.
Thing is; when you add a template, like a fighter class template, it makes the monster Elite if it wasn't already. So if he was giving each of these brutes a fighter template then you were not fighting 12 level 6 brutes, you were fighting 12 level 6 ELITES - with about double the normal hit points and +2 to most of their defenses. And yea, that's a really tough fight for a level 5 party. Sounds like you were not meant to survive, in fact.
The mobs themselves sound ok. A more balanced encounter would have probably been half that number of level 6 elite brutes. (According to the book, a standard encounter would have probably been only 2 level 6 elite brutes, but I think that's far too easy.)
3d12+10 (Brute strike I assume?) is a hunk of damage for sure, but it is only once a day from a given mob, honestly it's nothing a balanced group of level 5 PCs with a healer can't handle... unless there's 12 of them.
We had a few rounds of combat and then ran, retreated into a corridor and fought tactically while the mage's Ball of Fire 1st level Daily helped.
We killed a few of them, the fire ball dis amazing amounts of damage and they retreated. We used 85% of our expendable resrouces (potions, surges, 2nd winds).
So the adding class levels to monsters isnt that bad ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadite
As I understood it, class templates tend to make foes into elites? I don't have my books with me to verify that, but I'm fairly certain.
With that comes an adjusted EXP cost for being elites, so what's happening is you're facing groups that outlevel you by an amazingly huge margin. You should be dying, probably in a few rounds.
When you say he gave them one level of fighter what do you mean? Because that's how it worked in 3e, not how it works in 4e.
When you add a class to an existing monster you are adding a template, not levels. It's more like adding a template in 3e.
....
3d12+10 (Brute strike I assume?) is a hunk of damage for sure, but it is only once a day from a given mob, honestly it's nothing a balanced group of level 5 PCs with a healer can't handle... unless there's 12 of them.
Yes, levels right out of the PHB including a + to their HP equal to their CON stat. They had 2 handed +1 magic weapons and 3 mundane, large sized javelins each, all were wearing Plate armor.
One of the hardest parts was the Combat Challenge mark's. He could 'cross mark' so the melee characeters could not actually get to the targets that marked them, thus suffering the reach attack. Was brutal.
It was Brutte strike. Its reliable so he just kept using it untill he got it off.
So the adding class levels to monsters isnt that bad ?
Let me reemphasize - you do NOT add class LEVELS. Monsters work completely differently than player characters. When you add a class to a monster, you add it as a TEMPLATE. Which makes it elite, which makes it as effective as about two monsters rolled into one.
Lets look at your example, I don't have the books in front of me so I will be abstracting the mechanics a bit;
12 level 6 brutes = 12 regular mobs.
This is already a tough fight for a level 5 party. Depending on the party composition, at the most optimal you will be doing a fighting retreat down a narrow corridor and hope the enemy surrenders before you do. (Sounds like what you described.)
12 level 6 brutes with the fighter template added = 24 regular mobs.
Now the brutes are all ELITE. Meaning they have DOUBLE hit points and improved defenses, not to mention more encounter and daily powers each. The fight is mechanically TWICE AS HARD because 1 elite = 2 normal creatures. For a normal level 5 party this would end up with the players getting massacred.
Adding a CLASS template to a monster is a BIG DEAL. It makes it much tougher. It's completely legitimate as far as the rules go, but your DM is sure running a really gritty game if he's doing this regularly. It sounds as though you were meant to retreat from that fight.
This is already a tough fight for a level 5 party. Depending on the party composition, at the most optimal you will be doing a fighting retreat down a narrow corridor and hope the enemy surrenders before you do. (Sounds like what you described.)
We have a Rogue (Dodger), Wizard (Illusionist), Feylock, Paladin and Fighter (whose only weapon is a short sword due to bieng captured last session).
We thought about the 'we were not meant to go this way' but the monsters chased us. If this was a GM hint not to go this way, a portcullis might've worked better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanzuo
Adding a CLASS template to a monster is a BIG DEAL. It makes it much tougher. It's completely legitimate as far as the rules go, but your DM is sure running a really gritty game if he's doing this regularly. It sounds as though you were meant to retreat from that fight.
Yeah, it was the full on class level. 2 at wills, 1 Encounter, 1 Daily. One action point, and the second wind ability (which they used). He said "they have one level of fighter, just like a 1st level fighter would. its a monster with a class level"
Does the Monster Manual template give the second wind ability somewhere that I cannot find it ?
Technically, your DM can add any template or ability he wants to a foe as it's his game. However, in the sake of fairness, you might want to ask him whether he's trying to make a fun game for himself or a fun game for everyone.
Yeah, it was the full on class level. 2 at wills, 1 Encounter, 1 Daily. One action point, and the second wind ability (which they used). He said "they have one level of fighter, just like a 1st level fighter would. its a monster with a class level"
Does the Monster Manual template give the second wind ability somewhere that I cannot find it ?
Oh sweet jesus, it WAS what you described!
That's not right at all. It's fine if your DM feels story > rules, but when they completely disregard a core mechanic like that it can really mess up game balance.
No, you are right. The DM should not be able to add class levels to monsters at all. Monsters are designed differently than PCs. It sounds like he's just ignoring the rules. And most monsters do not get the second wind ability unless it explicitly says they do under the specific monster stat block. Even if they are elite.
I guess it's his prerogative if he wants to do things that way, but I know my players would leap down my throat if they though I was just arbitraily changing rules without justifying it.
I guess diplomatically find out if he's aware that he's not doing it right according to the rules. If he corrects himself then problem solved. If he IS aware and doesn't care to change his ways... well then I guess that's the kind of game he's running and my advice is to just go with it and try to have a good time.
One advantage of having a loose-with-the-rules DM is you can often get away with the same thing.
Does the use of actual class levels create enough of an inbalance that I should worry about it?
The GM is kinda prickly, and my thought was to warn him that the 4e rules system doesnt convert from 3.5 exactly, then gently point him to the Templates in the MM.
I don't want to do it if the game balance isnt really all the bad. I do worry about this later though, think of one of these things with 5 fighter levels and 2 dailies <shudder>
Does the use of actual class levels create enough of an inbalance that I should worry about it?
Yes. Yes it does--as I think you've seen from encountering these things.
Quote:
The GM is kinda prickly, and my thought was to warn him that the 4e rules system doesnt convert from 3.5 exactly, then gently point him to the Templates in the MM.
You should do this, and also gently suggest that he very carefully read through all of the PHB and DMG, assuming nothing from 3.5 is true. 4E is a very, very different game, and making assumptions that "it worked in 3.5" can break things badly.
Quote:
I don't want to do it if the game balance isnt really all the bad. I do worry about this later though, think of one of these things with 5 fighter levels and 2 dailies <shudder>
It's a huge balance difference.
__________________ ++++++++++++
Travis Stout
"An absolute monarchy is one in which the sovereign does as he pleases so long as he pleases the assassins."
--Ambrose Bierce
Agree with Kordeth. 4e isn't 3e, period. See if you can't get him to understand that he ought to read the three core books cover to cover like he would a completely new, unfamiliar system. Too much has changed to disregard core mechanics.
I'm playing in a side-game once a week with another group, and we definitely have a "prickly" DM kind of like you describe. He seems to acknowledge that I have a better grasp on the rules and more DMing experience in general, but we still have moments where he'll shoot down a rule-correction I bring up.
For example, I believe last week it came up that a combatant moving from a threatened square drew an Opportunity Attack. Pretty normal. But the DM and everyone else in the group seemed to think that the monster drew attacks from both the square he was moving FROM and the square he was moving TO. In other words, an extra OT that should not have been. They didn't seem to know the concept of a "threatened square."
- Well all my attempts to correct this met with staunch resistance, and after about a minute of fierce debate I dropped the matter and moved on. It worked in my favor anyway at the time.
1) If your DM wants to give monsters classes, he should use the rules on pages 182-183 of the DMG. He should note this will make the Elite - the equivalent of two monsters - and so he won't be able to use as many of them.
2) If he wants to use monsters with classes who aren't Elite, he should come up with some stats for a 'Lizardfolk Race' (in a similar fashion to the monster races on pages 276-279 of the Monster Manual), and then use that with the NPC creation rules on pages 187-188 of the DMG.
3) If he wants to make monsters higher level, he should simply use the very easy rules on page 174 of the DMG.
Or, simply tell him to read the entirety of Chapter 10 of the DMG, and all the rules for customizing monsters, and try to stay rather close to the way they do it. Simply adding class levels to monster worked in 3.5, but does not work at all in 4E! The monsters he threw at you were way more powerful than was appropriate. There are very easy rules for building the enemies he wants, but he should make them by the 4E guidelines.
As a DM, he can run the game however he sees fit, and if he finds the class templates lacking, he is certainly within his rights to improvise and/or houserule.
However, this makes combats significantly more difficult. He needs to be aware that this will make opponents an order of magnitude more powerful.
I concur that the best way to work with this, for him, would be to either (1) use the class templates, or (2) create a quick Race and stat them up as NPCs. I don't like the whole assertion that the DM is playing the game wrong; that's a very 3e attitude. He is, however, breaking 4e standards and making things much harder both on you folks and on himself. Quite simply, adding the PHB fighter level 1 on top of a monster makes things far tougher to run, gives them some exceptional abilities, and is worth more than upping a Level 3 to a Level 4 or whatever.
But failing that... well, if he knows the rules and dislikes them, and this is how he wants to run it... That's pretty much that. If he just doesn't know the rules, it's a different story.
One of the hardest parts was the Combat Challenge mark's. He could 'cross mark' so the melee characeters could not actually get to the targets that marked them, thus suffering the reach attack. Was brutal.
What do you mean by 'cross mark'?
Only one creature can mark a character at a time. However, creatures with reach could mark from the back line if they are able to attack people.
So, leaving aside the fact that it was done wrong, 12 elite level 6 monsters (which includes regular monsters with a class template) is (DMG p56) a Level 15 encounter for 5 players, or a Level 16 or 17 encounter for 4 players.
A "hard" encounter is described as one 2 to 4 levels above the party's level. Twelve regular level 6 monsters is a still an 11th level encounter for 5 players (12 or 13th for 4). It's gonna kill you all unless there are mitigating circumstances.
If your DM meant for you to realize you were outclassed and run away, then that's okay (presuming you're all on board with that particular style of game). Otherwise, something's out of whack even without the weird fighter class thing.
Additionally, an encounter with a big mob of brute monsters tends to be long and dull. They've got a lot of hit points and not much else. If it's really about "story > mechanics", look for some way for the story to include interesting groups of monsters. They can all look the same, even, but some of them should act differently.
A good example was last session when he took 12 Level 6 Brutte "Blackscale Bruiser" (MM 179), gave them all one level of Fighter and threw them against our level 5 party.
In that case, (any survivors) can happily take the 6,000 XP he just gave your group ( 12 x 500 for level 6 elites).
However, if he only gave out 3,600 XP (12 x 300 for level 7 standard) politely ask him to compare his 'level 7' monsters against the level 7 monsters in the Monster Manual.
Cross Marking - He was using large size creatures and reach weapons. So the creatures could attack our tanks from reach and then would move someone else in, so our fighter + paladin couldnt actually reach the target that had marked them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milambus
What do you mean by 'cross mark'?
Only one creature can mark a character at a time. However, creatures with reach could mark from the back line if they are able to attack people.
I understand what you DM tried to do. Lemme summarize it for you:
He set up your team against 12 one lvl higher large brutes
He gave them plate armors (+8ac)
He gave them better weapons
He gave them an additionnal daily power that hurts and is reliable
He gave them additionnal HP
So when your team tried to run, they chased you down.
He also used tactics with the marking thing.
Obviously your DM KNEW he was putting you guys up for a huge fight
Obviously he also knew that if you survived this fight, it would cost you a ton of ressources.
Looking at this it seems to me that you were meant to run. You guys seem to have tried, but maybe you didn't try enough? No 5 player party could have won this battle. Storywise, your party fell on a very solid bunch, much stronger than you guy were. Perhaps he just wanted to test your party's limit, which can be very frustrating for the PCs, but nothing forbids a DM put a nigh-impossible encounter. Seems like you guys did great afterall.
The way he added 1 class lvl dosent just grand a +1 lvl adjustment on the monsters stats, in fact noone knows what their equivalent level is, so if your dm is following the standard way of granting exp I guess you're gonna have to rely on his judgement to determine their lvl equivalency.
EDIT: forgot my point: Seems like your DM was trying to tell you guys that those brutes wen't just some bad guys you could stumble upon and beat them to death, but more like a very elite guard or whatever their purpose was. If you guys still think that you need to get rid of them(if you really need that) my guess is that you're gonna need a very solid attack plan, or just help. He might not have followed the rules, templates or second wind rules, but all that amounts to the same as putting you guys facing 12 lvl 10+x elite monsters. Maybe these guys are just put there so your party understands that some place is out of reach just yet. Just tell him that your pals in the 4e dnd forums suggested for game balance and clearness issues that he follow the rules for adding templates or that he'd just put stronger monsters next time instead of turning what should be average ones into real monsters.(better not go out too strong to your DM with what you've heard in this forum or he's just going to throw everything you bring from here to the trash.)
Last edited by HighTemplar; 10th October 2008 at 02:05 AM..
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