New Class Features in the DDI: Martial Powers Spoilers

[EldritchFire]

Originally Posted by TheLordWinter

I'm a bit wary of the new Fighter ability, as it seems a bit too strong for my tastes. It looks like, if I'm reading it correctly, that the fighter cannot be killed by low level minions if he's got a very high con. If my understanding of the ability is correct, you gain temp. hit points equal to your con mod whenever you're hit. So with an 18 or 20 con (not wholly unfeasible for a dwarf or dragonborn fighter) you gain as many temp. hit points as you'd lose (or more).

I definitely like the Rogue options I'm seeing though - it's good to know they are beginning to incorporate new weapons in.

Reread the battlerage vigor: "Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved)."

So, yeah, the fighter gets temp HP, but he needs to loose real HP first.

-EF

[ethandrul]

Here is what I expect in martial powers:

a paragon feat that allows sneak attack with any one weapon or one of a group of weapons.

an intelligence based rogue. (would love him to be factotumy- maybe getting jack of all trades as a free feat)

the idea of a 2-hander ranger is pretty close to the barbarian, and may not make the cut,
I think we will see a skirmisher option for a ranger who uses spears and polearms.

a little bit of ranged love for warlords

[cmbarona]

Even so, the unbalanced feature would only be delayed a turn. Let's say that 20-Con fighter is hit by a level 1 minion (4 damage). He takes 4 damage and gains 5 temp HP. Other minions can no longer touch him until something ranged burns through the tHP first.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by andarilhor

As has been noted in here, seems this features are options and not additions.

Someone opined that, but with no basis other than wishful thinking. The new features are listed under class features and then detailed in the section of class features.

At the moment, the Compendium thinks they are class features (as does, presumably, the person who added them to the compendium).

That might change, but at the moment they are displayed as additions, not options.

Cheers

[SteveC]

It may just be me, but these options seem more than a little ... fiddly. As someone who played a Crusader in a 3.5 game, having to fiddle with temp hit points all the time is much more complex than it seems, having to deal with them each time you're even hit? Ugh!

And the Bravura Presence power just seems like it would be annoying in practical use. I don't know, it's probably just me, but do we really need those new keywords either?

Yeah, gripe, gripe ... I'll have to wait to see the real product to make an actual determination.

--Steve

[GoodKingJayIII]

I won't make a judgment before seeing the book, but I am deeply uncomfortable with stacking hit points. There's a reason they're not meant to combine. I know that "rules of exception trump general rules," but have we already begun moving down a road that ends with an exception to every general rule?

There is lots of synergy potential for Barbarians and Battlerager Vigor.

[WalterKovacs]

Notes:

a - Tempest gives bonus to hit with certain weapon types [off-hand]. The damage bonus makes up for the smaller weapon die with off-hand, the twd makes up for losing a shield, etc So while it has more than weapon talent, I'm pretty sure it replaces that.

b - Battlerager on the other hand might replace something else. It turns you from sticky to icky [for minions at least] so maybe you lose combat challenge or superiority? Either way, it effectively gives them DR/close-melee, so it isn't necessarily that hard to keep track of [if someone does LESS than your temp HP in damage, your temp HP goes back up to it's fixed ammount.] You have to make sure you keep ranged/area damage in account, but it's not like the temp will change often, it will be constantly reset to the same number. Also, minions are not the sole way of dishing out damage, and the damage of minions will increase over levels faster than the fighters CON.

c - With specific keywords tied to what is "meant to stack", it's easier to keep things in check. Heck, not ONLY do you require the power have that keyword you ALSO need Battlerager Vigor. Only with those two conditions met do you get to stack, so it's a bit easier to see the effect. The basic idea is, a Battlerager Fighter is going to have temp hit points just about all the time ... so most powers that give him temp hits points aren't as good ... thus they are specific powers to make up for that.

d - The Rogue thing definitely seems like it would replace the dagger/shuriken weapon talent. The strength bonus to certain attacks seems like it's meant to stack with brutal scoundrel instead of replace it.

Just my thoughts.

[RyvenCedrylle]

Stacking temporary hit points sounded like a real problem until it occurred to me that any temporary HP you already have would lowered first anyway. So if you 15 temporary HP and you take 13 HP damage you could just subtract your Con modifier from the 13 and keep moving. It sounds complicated, but I think in play it will resolve itself out well enough. It's almost like having damage resistance (Con modifier)/- to your temporary HP pool.

[James McMurray]

Only hit points gained from invigorating attacks stack, and only when you gain them. So getting hit isn't just a straight "gain x - y temp hp." I'm concerned about it, but won't worry too much until I see what these invigorating attacks are like. A fighter that can barely be hurt but whose attacks do junk for damage with no secondary effects isn't too scary a prospect.

Hopefully the rattling attacks will be nice, otherwise the new rogue variant seems inferior to the brutal rogue except in those rare times when you're hitting someone without sneak attacking.

[darkadelphia]

It's been mentioned elsewhere that Ranger Beast Masters would be a separate build. I suspect that all of these will be for separate builds because it makes sense and is line with what we know. However, I know people love to assume the worst without cause.

[That One Guy]

So... posted this in the General martial power thread...

Originally Posted by That One Guy

...So, what are first impressions based on the features?

That Ruthless Ruffian sounds like it might take care of the wanted thuggish knee-breaking rouge. I want to see what the Rattling keyword means in play.

The Fighter features being a choice of three features is CRAZY to me. I know that it might not be implemented that way, but what about a Tempest Technique, Battlerager Vigor, Combat Challenge Fighter. Wield handaxes or something in chainmail. Or even a pair of off-hand shortswords would have a nice little damage buff to all attacks. OR, is it predicted to be Challenge/Superiority/ Focus - Focus being Weapon Talent, Tempest, or Vigor? This could be more balanced, but I like the craziness mix & match options. Also, Vigor makes dipping into barbarian really sweet.

Ranger Beastmaster. I mean... it sounds like it'll function like the statues - but more specialized. Probably minor actions to control. It's interesting, because I assume it replaces 2W & Bowspec. But, a ranger with a beast could still (if I understand this correctly) use Twin Strike and with a minor action Beastbite. Thet'll ramp up their DPR to a pretty extreme value, I think. However, it will make engaging and disengaging enemies much more difficult actionwise. The way I imagine it working is a fairly tactical build.

Warlord has two different presences. No WIS build. I think the formatting on the Compendium is incorrect. I think Bravura and Resourceful should be in the Commanding Presence Feature choice rather than new things automatically gained. I really like both of the new ones. Resourceful is the middle ground between Inspiring and Commanding. I dig it. A lot. Bravura sounds like it would be crazy in a party with [anyone who can output serious damage and takes risks].

I still would've liked a ranged warlord (and maybe one of the presences presented keys off of distance... so still no knowing), maybe one keyed off of Wisdom, and a INT-Rogue. For versatile fighters and 2HFighters, I'm hoping there'll still be new feats/powers (although Cadfan's Versatile Fighter is still pretty sweet).

Very excited about the new multiclass feats. I already know I'm going to get this book (He[ck], I've been sold since before 4e came out), but I would very much like to see if they are developing how I imagine they will.

How I think Ragevigor'll work. Minion hits for 2. Temp HP = 4. Minion hits for 2. 4 - 2 = 2. Fighter gains Temp HP = 4 replacing the old temp HP. So, Temp HP = 4. Basically, after being hit, the fighter has DR:Con Mod. Also, +Dmg bonus if specifics are met. It seems like an easier to use Crusader mechanic from Bo9S (although, I only played Swordsages).

[Minigiant]

Battlevigor and the addition of Barbarian boosts the Half Elf fighter a bit.
Choose Howling Strike as your racial, raise STR/Con, weild a TH Hammer or Axe, charge, provoke a minion, and lay them out.
A nice opener for any encounter.

[Mengu]

This is just guesswork, but I believe there is a lot of misplaced information in those write ups.

Battlerager Vigor - This is supposed to be 2 separate abilities, something like Battlerager Vigor (temp hps), and Battlerager Brutality (extra damage). These two abilities are replacements for Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, and Fighter Weapon Talent. Battlerager is basically a Fighter subclass with different class features, but same class powers. I also suspect they do not gain scale armor proficiency or have other means of being encouraged to fight in lighter armor (for instance the powers that go with this build might have stipulations that do extra nifty things when wearing light armor or chainmail).

Tempest Technique - this is supposed to be one of the fighter weapon talent options.

Beast Mastery - Beast Master is likely to be a new build. It would be a new fighting style. It's quite brilliant really. They can probably keep the "two attacks per round" flavor of the ranger with one attack from the beast companion and one attack from the ranger as encounter and daily powers. Otherwise, it will likely be a standard action for the ranger to make an attack with the beast, and a move (or maybe minor) action to move the beast. I also suspect the companion and the ranger will share a pool of healing surges between the two of them.

Ruthless Ruffian - this is obviously supposed to be a third Rogue Tactics option, and not a very good one from the looks of it, but hard to say without knowing what rattling does.

Bravura Presence and Resourceful Presence - these are obviouly supposed to be additional Commanding Presence options, and will likely have their own feats to go with them, not to mention powers that gain benefits from having these features.

Overall I'm very curious about how this book will be laid out. I can't help but wonder if they will reprint existing powers to include effects from the new builds. For instance Two-Fanged Strike, could easily be re-written to also allow one attack from the ranger and one attack from the beast companion. But it's probably easier to just make a new power to keep things simple.

[Walking Dad]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

Someone opined that, but with no basis other than wishful thinking. The new features are listed under class features and then detailed in the section of class features.

At the moment, the Compendium thinks they are class features (as does, presumably, the person who added them to the compendium).

That might change, but at the moment they are displayed as additions, not options.

Cheers

From the DDI:

Some of your most important characteristics are the ability to wear very good armor, your exceptional hit point total, and your mastery of all military weapons. In addition, you have three unique class features.

BATTLERAGER VIGOR
Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).

...

I stiil read 'three' unique class features.
I don't think you will just get all. The entries are clearly unfinished.

[That One Guy]

I'm not sure if I understand where your predictions come from...

Originally Posted by Mengu

This is just guesswork, but I believe there is a lot of misplaced information in those write ups.

Battlerager Vigor - This is supposed to be 2 separate abilities, something like Battlerager Vigor (temp hps), and Battlerager Brutality (extra damage). These two abilities are replacements for Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, and Fighter Weapon Talent...

Beast Mastery - ...Otherwise, it will likely be a standard action for the ranger to make an attack with the beast, and a move (or maybe minor) action to move the beast. I also suspect the companion and the ranger will share a pool of healing surges between the two of them.

Ruthless Ruffian - ...and not a very good one from the looks of it, but hard to say without knowing what rattling does.

Why would Battlerager Vigor be two abilities that replace three? I could see it replacing weapon talent and Combat Superiority, but also taking out combat challenge seems a bit much.
I think the Beast interaction will function like figurines of wondrous power and bags of tricks. Minor action to issue commands, but the creature cannot exceed the maximum number of actions it would normally have. I think that having it work in that fashion for magical items in AV would make it cumbersome to have a different mechanic for rangers.
How is Ruthless Ruffian not a good looking option? It might be a build, or it could be a weapon talent alternative. Who knows? Either way, it opens up new weapons available to the rogue and for multiclass characters this could be useful. I mean, why does it not look like a good option from the looks of it?

Edit: I'm not saying that you're wrong - because clearly the book is not out, yet. But, I'm trying to see where you're coming from, because I don't get it.