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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
Our group has been playing 4e since it was released and for the most part everyone seems to be enjoying the game. Most of us agree however that something seems to be missing but none of us are able to identify the issue. After some thought I have a few ideas I’d like to get some opinions from before making any changes. Currently I am a player in a campaign that won’t be ending any time soon so the changes I am thinking about would be implemented when I start a new campaign in the future.
There are two things I’d like to address. The first is the choice of powers available to arcane and divine casters on a daily basis. I don’t like the lack of versatility that is currently in the game. The second is how lengthy combats can get once the party’s more damaging powers have been expended. At times it seems like we just whittle away at the creatures forever before they finally go down.
I’d like to see arcane and divine casters choose their powers daily as they used to choose spells in 3e. Arcane casters could choose from any powers they have in their spellbook like they do now, they would just be allowed to have more than two powers a level. The DM running the game would set the limit. Theoretically they could have access to every power if the DM chose to allow it. Divine casters would choose their powers daily from all powers available, similar to how divine spells worked in previous editions. This would allow casters to adapt instead of being locked in with their choices. The usage of powers would remain the same; only the method of choosing them would change.
I don’t know exactly how much more powerful this makes arcane and divine characters but it is a benefit so I plan to add something to martial classes as well. I would make all martial powers reliable. This would serve two purposes. The first is to give a bump to the martial classes in an effort to keep everyone on a level playing field. The second would be to help shorten combats so they don’t get so boring at the end. Missing with a big daily power really sucks. You can still miss, but next round you’d get another shot.
The only question left is what to do with the fighter’s powers since they have a lot of reliable abilities already. I am thinking of giving them two powers at each level similar to what a wizard gets now. A fighter’s powers are tied to their weapon so I am not sure that’s a real benefit or not. I only planned on the changes above applying to daily and utility powers, not encounter powers. Though the more I think about it I may include encounter powers as well. I guess that’s why I am asking for suggestions.
I am normally reluctant to have a lot of house rules but as I said above, something seems to be missing. Hopefully I’ll get some good advice or suggestions. Thanks in advance for the input.
Combat length has been addressed in many many threads here - short answer - have more strikers, have the DM look at encounter composition a little more closely.
As far as your ideas for dailies - if you'd like to give Wizards and Clerics some of that older edition feel by letting them choose their powers, I say go for it. It's an edge, but it's not a huge edge, as long as you keep it to dailies (I wouldn't let them do that for utility powers, but that's just me). I wouldn't bother balancing out the other classes, as I don't think the choice is that huge of an advantage (especially for people who are used to the old edition's massive power gap between casters and non-casters).
However, what I would stress, is that you don't want to try and "balance" it by making the other class's dailies all reliable. Almost all the non-reliable powers have some benefit on a miss, so if you make those powers reliable, you're giving someone a situation where they're getting some effect, but not losing the use of the power. Like I said, I would just leave it be, but if you do want to balance it out, I would suggest just letting them choose their dailies at the start of the day as well.
__________________ Rick Reroll -- Deadly Rickster Utility 26 Daily
Choose one: you reroll one die roll you just made and keep the higher result; or the DM rerolls one die roll he just made and keeps the lower result.
The wizard feat expanded spellbook already allows the wizard to learn an additional daily at each level. You could just open this feat up to other classes, giving them some more flexibility but at the cost of feat (and needing 13 wis). Or if you still just want to give the casters all their dallies for free, you could balance it by giving the other classes a free feat.
However, just remember that the removal of huge spellbooks was done on purpose. To many options at every rest may slow things down.
Also you may want to be careful using general terms like Arcane and Divine, unless you meant to include Wizard, Cleric, Paladin, Warlock and Swordmages (and Artificers?). Thats equal to half (or more) of the classes, depending on which books you are using.
might not be exactly what you are thinking of, but I think that dramatically increasing the number and availability of rituals would be a big help for giving clerics and wizards more flexibility and versatility.
might not be exactly what you are thinking of, but I think that dramatically increasing the number and availability of rituals would be a big help for giving clerics and wizards more flexibility and versatility.
Yes. Make sure you have the Ritually Speaking article from Dragon (and e-mail customer service asking for more articles like it).
I've considered a house rule to double the number of utility powers everyone gets.
There are two things I’d like to address. The first is the choice of powers available to arcane and divine casters on a daily basis. I don’t like the lack of versatility that is currently in the game.
I dislike this as well. Much of the fun "magic" of the game has been stripped out. I'm tinkering with an idea that might help: a feat (call it whatever, Ritual Caster) that lets you cast a ritual you know as a Standard action. You can have as many queued up equal to your INT bonus. You still have to pay all costs associated with each ritual, effectively casting it right up until the final trigger.
This would allow for more variety and spells that aren't necessarily damage dealing spells, but still might be useful in the middle of a fight. It would also require a longer list of cool rituals to sample from.
I dislike this as well. Much of the fun "magic" of the game has been stripped out. I'm tinkering with an idea that might help: a feat (call it whatever, Ritual Caster) that lets you cast a ritual you know as a Standard action. You can have as many queued up equal to your INT bonus. You still have to pay all costs associated with each ritual, effectively casting it right up until the final trigger.
This would allow for more variety and spells that aren't necessarily damage dealing spells, but still might be useful in the middle of a fight. It would also require a longer list of cool rituals to sample from.
The idea is to depower clerics and wizards so that they aren't the walking wishspells however. Rituals have been depowered for a reason, so that they can't dominate battle.
Of course, when people discuss what they've taken away, they also seem to neglect the fact that Dimension Door-like abilities are handed out like candy, and that many wizards can reuse their options.
Houseruling that Wizards and Clerics get their rituals in battle requires some sort of balancing act for those that did not choose those two classes, and as well, the monsters.
Thanks for all of the replies. There are some good ideas being thrown out there which is what I was hoping would happen. Now for my own thoughts.
Vayden- if I decided to make the martial powers reliable I would not have anything happen on a miss. I was thinking that all along but failed to mention that in my original post. I could see how an extra striker would end combats sooner but in a 5 person party do you think the striker is the one to double up on? We have a 5 person party now and we have 2 leaders- a cleric and a warlord. The additional healing is nice but dealing additional damage would be as well.
Milambus- I was really only thinking about clerics and wizards. I think the other classes are interesting and versatile enough with the new choices they get already. I'm just having trouble adjusting to the changes made to clerics and wizards. Funny thing is I only played 5 PCs in the third edition era. They were a monk, fighter, wizard, cleric/monk, and a fighter/rogue. The rest of the time was spent running 2 campaigns. The first went to level 15 and the second level 23.
Plane Sailing / mattdm / Nebulous- I really do like the way rituals were handled, I think they are great. I thought about shortening the time to cast one (maybe by having a scroll be a standard action to cast) but it seemed anti "ritualistic" if you know what I mean. A ritual seems like it should take awhile just by the name alone. I have the article from Dragon and once more rituals are published I'll be snatching those up too!
DracoSauve- I like that the classes are evenly powered though it did take a bit for me to adjust. I'm still adjusting to everyone pushing, pulling, and teleporting all over the battlefield as well. I like the tactical options but it doesn't seem as "D&D" to me yet as the older editions. I really DM more than anything else so I am looking forward to that part being simpler. I usually run published stuff but for the first time ever I am planning a home brew campaign. That alone tells me something positive about the game.
I think after reading the suggestions so far I like a combination of ideas. Give clerics and wizards access to spells as in previous editions combined with letting the other classes choose 2 dailys and utilities at each level instead of just one. I'm open to more suggestions however so keep them coming!
I dislike this as well. Much of the fun "magic" of the game has been stripped out.
This is our group's take as well. We have a few players that are vastly disappointed in the sameness of combat from one encounter to the next.
Some, so much that they want to play different game systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulous
I'm tinkering with an idea that might help: a feat (call it whatever, Ritual Caster) that lets you cast a ritual you know as a Standard action. You can have as many queued up equal to your INT bonus. You still have to pay all costs associated with each ritual, effectively casting it right up until the final trigger.
We are toying with similar thoughts.
We are considering how we can change rituals so that some of the less powerful ones can be cast in combat.
I'm a Wizard. My Rogue friend has fallen unconscious. I want to cast Tenser's Floating Disk to pull him away from combat. I cannot.
Additionally, the only Ritual our group uses on a consistent basis is Enchant Magic Item. There just seems to be something inherently wrong with spending money to cast Hand of Fate or Phantom Steed or Tenser's Floating Disk or many others. These should be spells, not rituals. They do not bring people back from the dead, they do relatively minor magic.
The bottom line is that magic is now mostly about damaging foes and healing. There is very little in combat utility magic. There is very little in combat defensive magic.
And, most of the in combat magic lasts a round or so.
And, most magic is barely distinguishable from Martial powers.
Magic is no longer special and most of the fun magic is gone or nerfed to the point of limited utility.
There is very little long duration magic anymore either.
Most of the game is really about combat now.
Sure, one can find an exception here or there. But, PCs can no longer Fly over a mountain, PCs can no longer sneak through a town Invisible, magic is no longer special, unique, and with a reasonable duration. It's mundane and pedestrian.
Practically every foe now has one or more powers that are more or less indistinguisable from magic.
Magic used to be the factor that made PCs special and it itself was special. It's not anymore.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Luckily with all the new material thats coming, there will be new feats, and new variants which will diversify and maybe bring back some flavor to this insipid game.
Since your next game is not for tomorrow, Have some faith my friend, and house rules are made to please everyone. Be careful not to fiddle with certain things. As previously mentionned, you would be better to open up an expanded spellbook feat to non wizards then to just blatantly put all martial powers reliable.
Unfortunately, being balanced is all this edition has to offer yet, so destroying that, you might as well go back 3.5 ^^
Unfortunately, being balanced is all this edition has to offer yet, so destroying that, you might as well go back 3.5 ^^
Well, that isn't really true, is it? This edition offers a new way of doing critical hits, new way of doing hp, new way of doing healing, new way of doing skills...
I'm not sure that your comment makes any sense in this thread?!?
Luckily with all the new material thats coming, there will be new feats, and new variants which will diversify and maybe bring back some flavor to this insipid game.
Unfortunately, being balanced is all this edition has to offer yet, so destroying that, you might as well go back 3.5 ^^
/signed
If you compare 4E with the late 3.5, it sure looses out on variety of powers and the like. If you compare it with early 3.0, it looks very good.
It sounds as if few people even have tried the Ritual feature and it's versatility. None in my groups have even looked at the rituals for example, despite constant advertising of it's fantastical effects.
I, too, have been enjoying 4e. I was an early skeptic, but I love the class-powers mechanic.
With due respect to the OP, one of the things I never liked about pre-4e D&D was the "select your powers" each day thing. I just never knew what my character was going to encounter each day. Invariably I would be battling some horrible beastie and run out of power because I had selected "knock" instead of "magic missle" or somesuch. After awhile I would simply stop selecting certain utility spells, or my character would sleep at odd times of the day just to regain magic.
However, anyone wedded to the idea of choosing powers each day should take ALL of the class powers, and simply select the one you want each day: that would be fun, too.
I dislike this as well. Much of the fun "magic" of the game has been stripped out.
I understand this feeling. But consider this:
In previous editions, a wizard was the archtypical glass canon: Throwing high powered magic around, flying for hours, being invisble when it was convenient, cutting travel by teleporting over hundereds of miles via teleport.
This was all good "fun" - at least for the caster. Not sure that martial characters and DMs did agree on that on all the time. Sometimes other characters felt that the wizard was stealing too much spotlight, by emulating other characters roles with a couple of spells. Sometimes it was hell of a work as a DM to stop the improved invisble, flying caster and anoying when the wizard retreated into his safe extradimensional hut when pressed. Not fun.
This all was (halfway) balanced by the fact, that a surpised, unprepared wizard could be taken down in a matter of seconds due to his low hp (not fun - for the wizards in that case).
4E gives the wizard considerable more surviability. This comes at the price of limited arcane power for the wizard.
But that`s the price for balance, and I think it is worth it after all.
Back to the OP's concern, I also say go for it- it's not unbalancing. Here are my two house rules relevant to the conversation:
Wizards, at each extended rest, swap one daily or encounter power for a different one.
One Action Point may be used to re-roll an Encounter or Daily Attack, as long as the power is not Reliable or has an effect on a miss. (There is a feat of some sort out for this now, but my house rule stands so they don't have to blow a feat slot for ineffective dailies.)
4E gives the wizard considerable more surviability. This comes at the price of limited arcane power for the wizard.
But that`s the price for balance, and I think it is worth it after all.
I don't think that is the price for balance. There are other ways to balance a game without neutering an entire class concept.
It's not so much that the arcane power is limited. It's that virtually every spell is Evocation.
The issue is not that I want a Wizard to choose powers every day, it's that he has no options to pick from a wide variety of powers in a given encounter. He is limited every round to a small choice of spells. And it is the same options every encounter.
And, Dailies are not even a significant part of that choice. Dailies, at least for me, are for emergencies, not every encounter casting.
So at 7th level, he is limited every single encounter to 6 choices (instead of 5 because he is human, so he has 3 At Wills) which quickly drops down to 3 choices. Six might sound like enough to some people, but for people who enjoyed casting protection spells some rounds, offensive spells some rounds, illusion spells some rounds, miscellaneous spells some rounds, the sameness of casting one out of three to six damaging spells each round is really boring.
Every 4E Wizard is an Evocation specialist with a smidgen of control for all intents and purposes. zzzzzzzzzzz
Every 4E Cleric is an Evocation specialist with a handful of cures for all intents and purposes. zzzzzzzzzzz
Sure, each At Will and Per Encounter spell has some little twist added to it. But the spells are almost all damaging spells (Warlords have a few that are not).
And, it's not just that they are damaging spells. It's that people who loved to play classes for decades now with a lot of choices per round are now faced with a few.
Combat is always the same. Allowing a Wizard or Cleric to pick from a pool of spells each morning will not change that. They will still be limited to their handful of choices each encounter for that day.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
I have to ask - what are you doing out of combat with your characters? Are you taking advantage of the rituals to do some of the old Wiz/Clr tricks?
This is obviously one of the huge dividers between those that enjoy 4e and those that don't - that in this version, Wizards and Clerics don't have such a huge range of powers that in the hand of a competent player they start to make other classes look weak and unncessary.
Personally, the fact that scry/buff/teleport became a standard (not a tactic, a standard) indicated to me that there was something badly wrong with the game. I am personally glad that PC spellcasters, for the moment, are much more limited. I also believe that some of those powers will creep back in over time.
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