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The other day I got the chance to try out a barbarian for the first time. It was a short session, with only three combat encounters, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling here and have a thread in which we can share our experiences and observations.
I like making characters who go against the norm to some degree and I wanted to use the Warduke miniature, so my 7th level human barbarian wears scale armor, wields a bastard sword (to be replaced with a Waraxe at epic levels) and shield, and will become an Iron Vanguard later on.
At first glance, the class feels a bit more complicated than it needs to be. In the first battle I forgot to use swift charge after a killing blow, but I'd say it'll all come naturally pretty quick (while I still mix up Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge in my mind). I did not get to use the controversial rage strike, as in those first three encounters I did not rage once. I may get some use out of it at higher levels, what with a Divine Oracle in the party, but I don't see barbarians using this option very often.
The at-will powers are rather strong, especially when considered in a vacuum. Other classes may get jealous when you can shift 2 squares before the attack, through an enemy, and then push him in addition to dealing damage. On the other hand, that versatility is what I would've wanted out of at-will powers in general. Those were, after all, being advertised as always giving your character something interesting to do (something they may fail at, depending on the class and the specific powers chosen).
The armor issue. Personally, I like my barbarians in proper armor, and seeing how dexterity and intelligence otherwise tend to have a low priority, I don't see a mechanical reason to limit barbarians to light armor either. Sure, they're relatively tough, but not tough enough to be where flavor and some powers suggest they should be, unless they take measures to increase their armor class beyond absolutely worthless.
Defenses, continued. With a focus on strength and constitution, and the class bonus going to your Fortitude defense, other defenses are going to suffer. My barbarian is a human, uses a shield, and I opted to spend some points on dexterity and wisdom, so the problem is less pronounced for him than it might be for others, but his Reflex and Will defense will still fall behind the curve at later levels. Thaneborn barbarians will be better off in this regard, as will Pit Fighters, Heavy Blade Masters, etc..
I like playing a striker without a 1/round tacked-on damage mechanic. I am not convinced it's as problematic for multiclassing as some people claim, but I would've liked the article to include a multiclass feat so we can also playtest that.
My barbarian has spent 4 of 5 feats on increasing his survivability (he's not the only striker in the party, or I would've gone with a more aggresive build), and like most of the other characters has gone through half of his healing surges for this adventuring day. He doesn't deal as much damage as the rogue he's replacing, or as much as a typical barbarian will, but he's holding his own and, so far, he's fun to play.
That's an excellent write-up, thanks. Have an experience point.
Also thanks for starting this thread - I've got a player starting a barbarian in KotS on Monday, so I'll give some feedback when they put them into battle.
I like Barbarians in hide and leather armour, perhaps with some piece plate, but with very high HP to soak up damage. I'm just not sure their HP match up to what I would expect. I suppose that is the problem with ROLE(Striker) overtaking character class concept.
I've run a few playtest encounters for a dragonborn barbarian at 1st level and at 6th level.
I gave him chainmail (Eladrin Chain at 6th level) because there is no reason not to. Weapon of choice was a Maul because I wanted to stick with PHB weapons, but Full Blade is probably the best weapon for the barbarian since they don't seem to have as good a hit chance as the rogue or ranger.
At 6th level, Powerful Charge and Dragonborn Frenzy were kind of no brainer feats. I debated between weapon focus and toughness, went with weapon focus to enforce the striker side of the character, should have gone with toughness in hind sight.
My initial impression is that the Barbarian charges in first dishes out some good damage, and goes down fast. The semi-defender properties of the Barbarian were obvious due to the fire he tends to draw in early combat. But his durability is not as great as it looks on paper. He had the worst AC, Reflex and Will defenses in the party. The Warlord and Paladin were constantly having to heal him because of it. Due to powers like Great Cleave and Blade Sweep, he likes to be in the thick of things, but can't really take the heat, especially if facing enemies that target reflex.
Also when he is surrounded, taking something down doesn't trigger Swift charge in a very useful manner, since all the opponents are around him already. I think he should be allowed to make a basic attack with it, if he can't charge.
Allowing the Barbarian to use his Con (or Cha) bonus to AC instead of Dex or Int, would go a long way for improving his survivability. I would also change the class bonus to defenses from a +2 Fort, to +1 Fort, +1 Refl.
When he rages, his survivability increases quite a bit, but that's a limited resource. I would much prefer to see raging tied to spending an action point rather than a daily power. There is no reason the barbarian shouldn't be raging every other encounter.
I like Rampage, lets him really shine when he gets a crit. However, it's perhaps more appropriate as a feat.
Inexorable Shift turned out to be an incredible power in one of the encounters, when the barbarian dove into a mix of minions and brutes gaining 6d10+6 temporary hitpoints, eventhough those hitpoints did not last long, that was the one encounter where the Barbarian didn't need as much healing.
I've also noticed the barbarian shines more in encounters where there are numerous minions and weaker creatures, compared to encounters where there are few tougher opponents (reminiscent of the warlock in this aspect).
I like the design of the barbarian, but I feel it needs some tweaks to make it more fun for the player in a wider set of situations, while keeping it balanced. I think it will be very difficult to keep it balanced with the rogue and two-weapon ranger because of all the defender benefits the barbarian gets. I'm rather glad their bonus damage doesn't work like sneak attack or hunter's quarry. The DPR of a barbarian should hopefully fall somewhere between that of a greatweapon fighter and a rogue.
Also because their basic attacks are so powerful, Barbarians (much like greatweapon fighters) pair up well with Warlords.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Excellent. Two quick notes about Inexorable Shift: I am fairly sure it's supposed to be read as "1d10 + (1 x number of enemies within 2 squares)", so 1d10 + 6 in this case. Also, there already is a power with that name in the PHB (the Iron Vanguard's utility power).
More on the armor issue: my barbarian (after spending 3 feats on proficiencies) has the second-highest AC in the party. Thanks to his Bloodiron armor, when he hits an opponent with an attack, he has the same AC against that particular enemy as the paladin. Had he been using a two-handed weapon and hide armor instead, his AC would be worse than that of the wizard (except without the Immediate Interrupts to increase it), and there'd be a distinct possibility his career would be over already.
While most barbarians may not go to such lengths to increase their AC, I can't see many who won't at least pick up chainmail proficiency. Personally, I'd just give that to the class (and leave hide armor for the odd elf/heavy blade master/multiclass wizard), rather than introduce another class feature to serve as a fix of sorts.
Inexorable Shift turned out to be an incredible power in one of the encounters, when the barbarian dove into a mix of minions and brutes gaining 6d10+6 temporary hitpoints, eventhough those hitpoints did not last long, that was the one encounter where the Barbarian didn't need as much healing.
I think you might be reading this power wrong. I think it is 1d10....+1 per enemy adjacent. Otherwise, the amount of temp hp you are getting is vastily more than other other power of that level grants, which I don't think is the intent.
Inexorable Shift turned out to be an incredible power in one of the encounters, when the barbarian dove into a mix of minions and brutes gaining 6d10+6 temporary hitpoints, eventhough those hitpoints did not last long, that was the one encounter where the Barbarian didn't need as much healing.
Wha...?
I have doubts that's what the power means by "1d10 + 1 for each enemy within 2 squares of you". Because, you know... that makes Great Cleave do 6[W]+6xStr+6 damage on each hit if you have 6 enemies adjacent to you when you use it...
I guess you guys are right. I read the power like 3 times, before deciding on Xd10+X, but 1d10+X is probably the intent. It's just not worded very well. It should be worded more like:
Effect: You shift a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier. You then gain 1d10 temporary hit points. For each enemy within 2 squares of you, gain 1 additional temporary hitpoint.
or
Effect: You shift a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier. You then gain 1d10 temporary hit points + 1 temporary hitpoint for each enemy within 2 squares of you.
And as Ander00 pointed out, it does need a different name so as not to be confused with the Iron Vanguard Utility Power.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Last edited by Mengu; 10th October 2008 at 08:50 PM..
I've just come back from an 8th level game. One of the players had been playing a Warlord but wasn't enjoying it, so the GM surprised her with an alternate build, same character but re-written as a Barbarian.
(As a side note, the group now consists of a paladin, a cleric and one of each of the striker classes! - we like kicking out damage!) I play a melee ranger, and to be honest, I was a little miffed to have some serious competition in the damage dealing stakes! I don't think the barbarian is overpowered, but going nova and converting her 5th level daily with a Maul to a 8d6+8 damage....wow!! None of my powers could touch that!
The extra basic attack on a melee and extra charge when dropping an enemy are also significant boosts.
Finally, I should mention the durability aspect...At 8th level, wearing chainmail and having toughness, she had 80hp (dwarf with 18 con) and an AC of 22. That was way more hp than the paladin, never mind the ranger (who also has toughness). She did go down a couple of times, but that's because she charged off on her own, instead of sticking with the group. The extra 3 temporary hit points when each minion went down certainly helped a bit, and at 9th level her rage will give her DR 8/-....
I'm not saying its overpowered because I'm jealous but I want to play one now, which may be a better indication that it is very powerful. In fairness to the ranger though, he has a better Will, more manueverability and I just love my immediate interrupt powers when I get to kill my foe before he can hit me, or then gets -6 to hit if he survives
I think on average, the ranger will do more damage, since he rolls twice as many attacks, while the barbarian is more variable - but if she does roll a critical, look out! The lack of missile capability is also significant, where the ranger can just drop his two bastard swords and pull out his bow, and still use most of his funky powers. The barbarian is very focused.
Comparing to the other two strikers, the rogue is also quite flexible and maneuverable, but sometimes has a hard time getting combat advantage without exposing herself, while the warlock (infernal) is ok, but doesn't seem to kick out quite as much damage. To be honest, I'm not sure exchanging damage for conditions is really worth it in 4e. You can prone, slide, daze or whatever a monster as much as you like, but that won't finish the fight. The only way to do that is to knock down its hit points, so personally, unless you are very tactically proficient I don't think warlock is that sound. Just my two cents...
DMing for my monthly group Sunday night and one of the players couldn't make it. Wouldn't have been a problem except his Warlord (the party's only tank) bit the dust the previous game session (dang ghouls and zombies in Rivenroar!).
He's going to try out a swordmage, but since he wasn't around I rolled up Ogg the Barbarian, level 3 and full of piss and vinegar. Executioner's Axe and Hide Armor, gave him 14's in everything since he's a one-shot. Certainly not optimized.
He kicked some major ass. While he could not suffer a great many attacks (and did drop once), he dealt a ton of damage. The Brutal 2 aspect of Executioner's Axe certainly helped a couple of times with that. But since we're here to discuss the barbarian powers, here goes:
Like one of the posters above, I completely forgot about Rageblood Vigor and Swift Charge. Nor, obviously, was I able to use Rage Strike at 3rd level. Howling Strike is VERY powerful as an at-will, especially since Ugg (my player's changed his name; later he became Gog and Grog) charged just about everything he saw. 12.5 average damage is nothing to sneeze at, for sure.
Recuperating Strike he used a couple of times, but with his generic Con of 14, was less useful. I'm very interested to see the effect of a Con build with this ability, as it basically results in DR 4.
Avalanche Strike was also very interesting. In keeping with the theme of giving up defense for offense, you get a 3W Encounter power which gives any attacker against you +4 to-hit next round. I liked it for the 3W, which gets crazy with a weapon doing 1d12. And he wasn't made to pay this time, but with multiple enemies around you you'd probably be wishing for Great Cleave.
As his Daily Rage, Ugg took Bloodhunt Rage, which when he used it he critted on it, leading to 52 damage and one dead Boneshard Skeleton. IN-tense.
Overall, I'm very excited for Barbarian. I don't want to get into the Rage Strike discussion here, but I do like the way they've handled Rage in 4E. Ugg will continue to fill in for missing party members, and we'll see what happens as WOTC responds to playtest reports. One thing that is clear (and that has been belabored to death) is that they need editors. 'Nuf said.
My initial impression is that the Barbarian charges in first dishes out some good damage, and goes down fast. The semi-defender properties of the Barbarian were obvious due to the fire he tends to draw in early combat. But his durability is not as great as it looks on paper. He had the worst AC, Reflex and Will defenses in the party. The Warlord and Paladin were constantly having to heal him because of it. Due to powers like Great Cleave and Blade Sweep, he likes to be in the thick of things, but can't really take the heat, especially if facing enemies that target reflex.
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I would agree with this. My friend was playing a level 2 dragonborn barbarian, and they do take a lot of the damage dished out in combat.
I was a cleric and had to use Healing Word often ,but with his amount of healing surges the party managed to get through a decent amount of combats before resting. Though if you want some range with a dragonborn barbarian grab the hurl breath feat in the ecology of the dragonborn article in Dragon #365.
Funny. One of my players tore up their warlord in favor of barbarian also.
The current thing I'm pondering about with the barbarian is rage + veteran's armor. Rage feels like something "more" than just a daily attack, so it makes the clear choice of armor for any barb veteran's armor in my opinion. Or am I wrong? Veteran's armor lets you convert an action point into a recharged daily once per day as a free action. An extra rage is much more potent than an extra Lead the Attack or whatever.
Thoughts?
Otherwise it seems like the barb's toughness will drastically depend on the type of encounter. If there is a pile of minions the barbarian can get themselves in the center of, the barb will take them out and gain a zillion temporary hp.
I would've liked to have a more thrilling report after the second session with the barbarian, but here goes:
I made the mistake of bringing my own dice again. So while the mage did her thing, and the player of the ranger (with a vicious bow) and paladin once again rolled crits left, right and center, I rolled a crapload of 2s (both on d20s and on d10s) and not much else (not a single crit either). Add to that a few tactical blunders, and the barbarian spending a good part of the first encounter inside a shambling mound, and saying that he didn't accomplish much of anything would be a bit of an understatement.
Unless you count going down first as one. And staying down, because he was also the first one out of healing surges (despite receiving that precious lay on hands earlier).
One rage effect ended up doing very little, while the other did nothing at all (the initial daze was a little help, at least). He scored one killing blow, but at the time the monsters were so far apart, he could not even use his swift charge power.
Overall, an exercise in frustration, though few characters would've shone under the circumstances.
Anyone play a barbarian past level 9? They ramp up in power pretty quick as they learn more rages per day.
Did an 11th level test. The he does indeed ramp up in power because he can frenzy in at least 3 encounters during the day. That's typically half the encounters in an adventuring day. The raging only became fun at this level. It was too infrequent earlier. This is part of why I would like to see the raging mechanic tied to action points (or milestones somehow), so the barbarian can rage every other encounter, regardless of level.
I also have to say Stone Bear Rage is a bit overpowered. During the particular encounter where the Barbarian used that evocation, he was right down untouchable. All the ongoing damage, aura damage, damage from minions bounced right off the resistance (or did nickel and dime damage for a more potent aura). Add some temporary hit points into the mix, and even the decent skirmisher damage didn't put a dent in the barbarian's hit points. This one daily power prevented over 100 points of damage to the barbarian. That is more than any other 9th level daily power can do. The numerous ways he had (plus the ways the warlord had) of giving temporary hit points meant that the Barbarian hardly had to spend any resources other than the one daily power to survive what was a difficult encounter for everyone else (level+3).
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
I also have to say Stone Bear Rage is a bit overpowered. During the particular encounter where the Barbarian used that evocation, he was right down untouchable. All the ongoing damage, aura damage, damage from minions bounced right off the resistance (or did nickel and dime damage for a more potent aura). Add some temporary hit points into the mix, and even the decent skirmisher damage didn't put a dent in the barbarian's hit points. This one daily power prevented over 100 points of damage to the barbarian. That is more than any other 9th level daily power can do. The numerous ways he had (plus the ways the warlord had) of giving temporary hit points meant that the Barbarian hardly had to spend any resources other than the one daily power to survive what was a difficult encounter for everyone else (level+3).
Hope you're sending that observation to WotC's feedback email.
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I find Raging Strike to be a waste of time as written, and completely unusable until 5th level. Can anyone name a CLASS FEATURE that you can't use at 1st level?
I think you should be able to use Raging Strike any time, and then when you blow the Rage power to get the extra damage, you count as raging as if you had used the Rage power (you don't get the extra benefits, but it would affect other powers and possibly feats etc because you count as raging).
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I find Raging Strike to be a waste of time as written, and completely unusable until 5th level. Can anyone name a CLASS FEATURE that you can't use at 1st level?
I think you should be able to use Raging Strike any time, and then when you blow the Rage power to get the extra damage, you count as raging as if you had used the Rage power (you don't get the extra benefits, but it would affect other powers and possibly feats etc because you count as raging).
But that would be pointless. At first level, it would be strictly worse than activating the power.
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but I want to play one now, which may be a better indication that it is very powerful. In fairness to the ranger though, he has a better Will, more manueverability and I just love my immediate interrupt powers when I get to kill my foe before he can hit me, or then gets -6 to hit if he survives
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