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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
It seems the CHA equivalent of intelligent blademaster was purposefully omitted.
Would it be overpowered to house rule it? I have a campaign where the fighter died and wants to play a CHA based pally instead. The leader in the group is a taclord, and they want to maintain the commander's strike synergy.
Would "charismatic blademaster" be too strong as a feat? What do people think?
Intelligent blademaster is for Swordmages only. Charismatic Blademaster ought only be allowed to Paladins I would think, were one to make such a feat.
__________________ Disclaimer--I do not think that anyone else plays the game "incorrectly," unless their players are not having fun. I am a "both/and" kind of guy, not an "either/or." However, I often explain what I like in a way that sounds like I'm saying my way is better, because it's easier to write that way and more fun. Also, s.
How about an Agile Mage feat, where they can replace Int w/ Dex where appropriate?
__________________ It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it -Upton Sinclair
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand. -Albert Einstein
Alignment is what you are when no one is watching. -Yakoska, fellow D&D player.
How about an Agile Mage feat, where they can replace Int w/ Dex where appropriate?
That's going too far, imo. The feat for swordmage only applies to basic attacks after all. Being able to change your primarily stat from int to dex gives you a net benefit in terms of initiative with no disadvantage (other than the feat cost). Perhaps if you deliberately made yourself MAD and said "apply your dex bonus instead of your int bonus to attacks relying on your int to hit", that way you can either have high initiative and accuracy (with low damage), or you can be forced to have MAD.
Doesn't intelligent blademaster only allow you to use int instead of str for basic attacks?
Personally I think there should simply be a feat that lets you substitute whatever stat you feel like: basic attacks are worse than your at-wills even if you can use your best stat on them, so it's really limited to situations where you are granted a basic attack explicitly, and on OA attacks.
OAs are pretty rare unless you've got a class ability to give you more (ie - are a fighter and already have high str).
Boosting granted basic attacks falls into two circumstances: You're granting yourself a basic attack (via a power), and therefore if you had bad basic attacks, you'd simply never take the power in the first place, or someone else is granting you a basic attack, and if you've got a bad basic attack, they'll just grant it to someone else with a more powerful basic attack anyway.
All up, I can't see it making a difference that's significantly more than any other feat.
It's not that it's overpowerly too strong. It's just that it's a path you don't want to take.
Opening up this kind of feat and then you have people that want to distort everything to match their best abilities.
I encountered this situation a coupple of times, and it sucks, but i trusted the game balance towards feats and I refused. One of my best RP players made a charisma based ranger(that he'd transfered from 3.5 where he played a low wis ranger without acess to spells thru some variants) now he was stuck with tons of cha and no wis where half of the ranger powers depend on wis modifier. He whined about the fact that he used his cha solely for RP purposes and asked for a feat that let him use his cha modifier instead of wis for ranger powers. It was legitimate, but I chose to refuse, and convinced him that his high charisma came with a price, and if he wanted to , he could change his abilities to get more wis since we were at the start of the game and still trying the new 4e system. Eventually he chose different paths going around the wis based powers and got happy and proud of his style. It's not ALL about the powergaming. You have the right to say yes, and you have to right to say no. He'll be happy anyways eventually, so think about yourself and your game.
That's going too far, imo. The feat for swordmage only applies to basic attacks after all. Being able to change your primarily stat from int to dex gives you a net benefit in terms of initiative with no disadvantage (other than the feat cost). Perhaps if you deliberately made yourself MAD and said "apply your dex bonus instead of your int bonus to attacks relying on your int to hit", that way you can either have high initiative and accuracy (with low damage), or you can be forced to have MAD.
Dex instead of Int for basic attacks, for a Wizard with very accurate aim, would let the wizard use it for Magic Missiles.
When Paladins get basic attacks as the result of one of their class features/build options, then Charismatic Blademaster might make sense. As it stands, it doesn't, because even if it did, Strength is still a primary stat for Paladins -anyways.-
When Paladins get basic attacks as the result of one of their class features/build options, then Charismatic Blademaster might make sense. As it stands, it doesn't, because even if it did, Strength is still a primary stat for Paladins -anyways.-
Str is a primary stat for Avenging Paladins. Protecting Paladins only put points into strength to
1.) Carry their plate mail
2.) Boost their basic attacks.
Charismatic Blademaster would reduce some of the MAD for Protecting Paladins.
__________________ Disclaimer--I do not think that anyone else plays the game "incorrectly," unless their players are not having fun. I am a "both/and" kind of guy, not an "either/or." However, I often explain what I like in a way that sounds like I'm saying my way is better, because it's easier to write that way and more fun. Also, s.
What sort of an idiot wizard has a better dex than int?
Exactly, an idiot wizard ;-)
__________________ Disclaimer--I do not think that anyone else plays the game "incorrectly," unless their players are not having fun. I am a "both/and" kind of guy, not an "either/or." However, I often explain what I like in a way that sounds like I'm saying my way is better, because it's easier to write that way and more fun. Also, s.
On a more serious note, a feat allowing wizards to use dex for MM would be problematic because it would be most useful for folks multiclassing to wizard.
__________________ Disclaimer--I do not think that anyone else plays the game "incorrectly," unless their players are not having fun. I am a "both/and" kind of guy, not an "either/or." However, I often explain what I like in a way that sounds like I'm saying my way is better, because it's easier to write that way and more fun. Also, s.
Ok, I guess the next question is: what use does a rogue multiclassed into wizard have for magic missile? It stops him using his sneak attack, and doesn't really give many benefits in exchange.
It's not that it's overpowerly too strong. It's just that it's a path you don't want to take.
Opening up this kind of feat and then you have people that want to distort everything to match their best abilities.
I encountered this situation a coupple of times, and it sucks, but i trusted the game balance towards feats and I refused. One of my best RP players made a charisma based ranger(that he'd transfered from 3.5 where he played a low wis ranger without acess to spells thru some variants) now he was stuck with tons of cha and no wis where half of the ranger powers depend on wis modifier. He whined about the fact that he used his cha solely for RP purposes and asked for a feat that let him use his cha modifier instead of wis for ranger powers. It was legitimate, but I chose to refuse, and convinced him that his high charisma came with a price, and if he wanted to , he could change his abilities to get more wis since we were at the start of the game and still trying the new 4e system. Eventually he chose different paths going around the wis based powers and got happy and proud of his style. It's not ALL about the powergaming. You have the right to say yes, and you have to right to say no. He'll be happy anyways eventually, so think about yourself and your game.
But... what's wrong with a ranger using Cha instead of Wis? I can understand not wanting to let people use their primary stat for something that it doesn't normally apply to, but in that ranger case, the only difference it makes is that he's good at skills like Perception instead of Diplomacy. That's hardly powergaming. If anything being good at talking to people might encourage him to roleplay more. :/
Ok, I guess the next question is: what use does a rogue multiclassed into wizard have for magic missile? It stops him using his sneak attack, and doesn't really give many benefits in exchange.
Well, it *is* a "vs. Reflex" attack with an amazingly good range, and you don't have to draw any weapon. In a pinch, it's pretty handy.
Going back to the original post, I think a Charismatic Attack feat for Paladins would be unbalanced.
Right now, a Straladin has good OAs while a Chaladin has good Divine Challenge damage. If you introduce that feat, the reasons for playing a Straladin diminish significantly. The Cha powers are already awesome, and Divine Challenge is probably better than OAs already.
I would avoid such a feat. To be honest, I'd avoid allowing Intelligent Blademaster in my game because of the same imbalance (little reason to be Assault over Shielding now).
But... what's wrong with a ranger using Cha instead of Wis? I can understand not wanting to let people use their primary stat for something that it doesn't normally apply to, but in that ranger case, the only difference it makes is that he's good at skills like Perception instead of Diplomacy. That's hardly powergaming. If anything being good at talking to people might encourage him to roleplay more. :/
Pretty sure you misread my post. The player does RP anyways, and decided to keep his high cha and low wis. allowing him to replace every instance of wis by cha in the ranger department of powers would have made him much-much more powerful.
The problem is that the player wanted to make a high cha ranger for starters and he wanted to sacrifice other stuff to be really charismatic. He took feats to get trained in bluff and intimidate(cha based) and now rocks with those. Letting him invent such a feat lets him rock with just two high stats and no price for his exotism. It sucks because the value of his sacrifice of playing something different and original was defined by the fact that he needed to sacrifice his wisdom for it, and with this new feat, would lose all it's worth.
Actually, Intellegent Blademaster makes Assault better, not worse.
That's a good point. I really should reread my posts before sending, I guess .
What I meat to say was:
Intelligent Blademaster imbalances the class by making Strength a much less worthwhile stat. Unless I was setting my character up for the paragon and epic weapon feats, I would probably ignore Strength altogether for either build.
But yeah, back to the original poster's feat suggestion.
There's a Paladin in a game in which I play that has Str 14, Cha 20. He's Human, so he wanted to be able to use his extra human at-will at least semi-effectively. Also, he's got great Divine Challenge damage and OK OAs (+7, 1d8+3). So he can effectively hold down more monsters due to the multiple incentives he has for staying next to him and attacking.
So it's not impossible for a Paladin to have good Strength and Charisma as is. I think a feat would only cheapen the class overall and cause characters to pump only Charisma. Much like how Swordmages do not have much reason to raise Strength.
I hope these ramblings somehow clarify my previous ramblings .
s. 
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