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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Current PCs: Genasi Warlord 2 Human Fighter 2
Posts: 7,436
Sustaining a power provokes OAs?
Last night a goblin Hexer and his minions attacked our party. He hit us with a "Vexing Cloud", which is an area attack. Eventually we were able to surround him, so he used a minor action to sustain the cloud, and move it over himself.
We players said "We get OAs 'cause he used an area power while adjacent to us!"
Were we right?
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
I would say no. You weren't adjacent to him at the time he used the power, you were adjacent at the time it was sustained. Sustaining itself is quite a different concept from the initial use of the power which is later sustained.
You get an OA when an adjacent enemy makes a ranged or area attack, moves from a threatened square, or takes an action that specifically provokes an OA. Sustaining a power doesn't specifically provoke an OA. Vexing Cloud doesn't attack anything when you sustain it. If it did (e.g. Hunger of Hadar), I'd say it provoked an OA. Since it does not, I say no OA.
t~
edit: note that using an area power explicitly provokes, but sustaining a power <> using a power, so we fall back on the basic OA triggers noted above.
Last edited by tiornys; 9th October 2008 at 06:36 PM..
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Current PCs: Genasi Warlord 2 Human Fighter 2
Posts: 7,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmbarona
I would say no. You weren't adjacent to him at the time he used the power, you were adjacent at the time it was sustained. Sustaining itself is quite a different concept from the initial use of the power which is later sustained.
Rules text quote?
"concept" |= RAW
...and don't I know it.....<grumble, grumble>
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
On the initial use of the power it invokes an OA because it has the Area keyword (and powers with Area or Range keyword 'provoke' OA's by anyone adjacent.) So you are RIGHT if he uses the power while you are adjacent. However, sustaining the power does not provoke OA's, so after round one you would not be right.
As per PHB 290 "If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or area power, you make an area Opportunity Attack against that enemy."
Notice it says nothing about provoking from sustaining a power. Therefore you get an OA only on the round they use the power, not any rounds where they sustain it. In game turns I'd consider that he's concentrating on the power but has turned his focus back on threatening enemies, or using another power.
Perhaps "concept" was the wrong word. I meant "idea" or, a far better term, "mechanic." I wish I had the books in front of me for a quote, but I guess that will have to wait until either I get home or someone else beats me to it.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Fion.
In this case, I think the term "using" is the source of the confusion. I see "using" to mean the initial implementation of a power.
On another note, side with the DM. Trust me. Your Wizard will not want to provoke OAs just from sustaining Flaming Sphere.
Last edited by cmbarona; 9th October 2008 at 06:53 PM..
Based on the fact that there a couple of terrain hazards in the DMG that use sustain Standard I would say that sustaining does not provoke an OA. You would look silly taking a swipe at an avalanche or a rock slide.
Thats the ruling for my game, YMMV of course.
__________________ You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia; but only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian, when death is on the line!
There was a thread on WotC's 4e Rules Q&A forum (can't link to it as they're down at the moment) posting a CustServ response to questions about Flaming Sphere. Their ruling was that only the initial casting of the spell provoked - even directing the Sphere to attack on subsequent rounds would not provoke.
As usual with CustServ, take the answer with a pinch of salt (large or small, to taste).
There was a thread on WotC's 4e Rules Q&A forum (can't link to it as they're down at the moment) posting a CustServ response to questions about Flaming Sphere. Their ruling was that only the initial casting of the spell provoked - even directing the Sphere to attack on subsequent rounds would not provoke.
As usual with CustServ, take the answer with a pinch of salt (large or small, to taste).
FWIW, I ruled that directing the sphere on a subsequent turn is a Melee attack for purposes of determining cover and OAs and anything else it might matter for. Seemed like common sense to me...
FWIW, I ruled that directing the sphere on a subsequent turn is a Melee attack for purposes of determining cover and OAs and anything else it might matter for. Seemed like common sense to me...
Which serves to show that everyone can have a different opinion on what common sense means
Imho, sustain actions shouldn't provoke OA. 4E has reduced the types of actions that provoke OA for a reason.
As I mentioned above, making an attack with an existing flaming sphere is making an attack with a ranged power. That's one of the default actions that triggers opportunity attacks per PHB p. 268, so I disagree with that customer service ruling. When you attack with a flaming sphere, you provoke an OA. When you sustain a flaming sphere, you do not provoke an OA.
As I mentioned above, making an attack with an existing flaming sphere is making an attack with a ranged power. That's one of the default actions that triggers opportunity attacks per PHB p. 268, so I disagree with that customer service ruling. When you attack with a flaming sphere, you provoke an OA. When you sustain a flaming sphere, you do not provoke an OA.
t~
I was just about to post an argument against this, when I went back to check the wording on the power.
Quote:
As a standard action, you can make another attack with the sphere.
After re-reading the power text, I have to agree that this seems correct per RAW. I don't really agree with this, or think it "makes sense" but is does seem correct according to the rules.
BUt 4e has listed those actions that provoke for a reason too.
Here's the OA text:"If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy."
Note that it doesn't say "attack". It says "uses".
Isn't sustaining a power using that power?
No. But attacking with it again, or even moving it into someone could be considered "using it". Merely maintaining it's current state wouldn't be using it, in my opinion.
No. But attacking with it again, or even moving it into someone could be considered "using it".
If we define making the attack next round as "using" Flaming Sphere, then it's forbidden.
Flaming Sphere is a Daily Power. PHB p54: "A daily power can be used once per day." If I used the Daily Power, Flaming Sphere, last round, and what I want to do this round is considered to be using Flaming Sphere, then I'm not allowed to do it.
Using a ranged power provokes an OA. A daily power can be used once per day. Therefore a daily ranged power can provoke an OA once per day.
Well, after rereading the power description, I'm inclined to agree that using a standard action to attack again with a Flaming Sphere while sustaining the power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nail
Isn't sustaining a power using that power?
I don't think so. Sustaining a power in and of itself does not provoke, imho. Taking a look at PHB p.278:
Quote:
Some effects do something, such as attack, when you sustain them.
It's pretty clear to me that sustaining effects that don't attack don't provoke.
Sustaining an existing power does not provoke OAs.
Only two things typically provoke OAs in 4e: Moving out of a threatened square, and initiating a power with the ranged or area keywords adjacent to a threatening enemy.
No other action provokes OAs unless the description for that action specifically says it provokes OAs.
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