Dragon 368 - Death Matters (But Never Happens)

[Ahwe Yahzhe]

Design & Development: Death Matters
(article)

Dragon 368 - Death Matters - Wizards Community
From discussion above on the Boards-Formerly-Known-As-Gleemax:

What a crock. Dying is completely nerfed. The single biggest problem with 4th Edition, above all else, is that characters NEVER die. My first campaign has been running for 18 sessions now, using primarily the published H-series adventures with a LOT of combat, as is the focus of this edition. Granted, I've got pretty smart players who have absorbed the new rules possibly better than their DM, and who fight very well as a team. They've been both incredibly lucky and unlucky in some battles, so I've seen that variability. That said, the only character death that has occurred so far was at the climactic battle in Shadowkeep Fell. And the only reason two characters died in that battle was the encounter's unique feature that said any PC that goes through this portal dies. (Basically, a save-or-die situation against being pulled through the portal.)

Other than that, I've found that the Death & Dying rules are broken, and barring an actual TPK, as long as one character is not dying at the end of a battle, the whole party will be just fine.

Why? Several reasons, all by very intentional design. Because of copious healing surges and other effects, characters rarely go into a "dying" condition. They are frequently bloodied, sometime bobbing in and out of that condition multiple times in a single fight. This adds some tension and flavor, but little more mechanical significance than the old "full-up fighting at 1hp" of all previous editions. As long as the PC is in the fight, a resourceful player will find a way to bestow that healing surge on himself or his buddy.

But suppose a PC does hit 0 hp or lower? (Thanks for getting rid of the "twilight zone" mechanics of 0 hp, by the way.) No problem- dying is just another ongoing effect, with extra chances to save. Another player will just withstand an opportunity attack or two while he stabilizes or heals the fallen. A DC15 Heal check to stabilize is simple, or divine powers that grant +4 and the like on a static 10-or-better save roll until somebody else can get to him. And that's assuming he isn't outright healed to 1/4 hit points and back in the fight with a minor action like Lay on Hands.

Death from massive damage? I have yet to see a "dying" character come even close to 1/4 negative hit points from any attack or ongoing effect, let alone negative Bloodied- it's really a rule with no practical application.

Finally, when the encounter is over, just take as much time as you need to stabilize any remaining "dying" characters. From there, it's a simple matter to allow a stabilized character to spend 4 healing surges and be at 100% health. No problem. And if somehow a character managed to burn through their endless supply of surges for the day, they can hunker down until the 12-hour ticker expires for an extended rest. Then they get all their hit points back AND their surges, not to mention their dailies. Even in a monster-infested labyrinth (H2) where checks bring up a random encounter or two when the party does try to wait out the clock, this is rarely an issue, because that character, nearly dead just minutes or hours ago, is still in the fight with at least 1/2 hit points against mooks.
So, if one player survives an apocalyptic encounter, the whole party can be stabilized from "dying" as they drop, and five minutes later, the whole party is ready to fight again at full strength, with slight dents in their healing surge pools. (And yes, I've seen something like this happen in my game, only with two of six players standing at the end of an encounter.)

What does this mean? Nobody in the party cannot die, unless the DM decides to TPK them by trapping them in an encounter several levels above their own, or by ganging up on one PC and ensuring the coup-de-grace occurs. (And by "several levels," I mean 5 levels or more higher- my group's standard encounter is pretty much 0-to-3 levels above their own.) Fun fights, but everyone knows their character isn't really going to die, even when the evil DM ramps up the encounter by a level or two by adding an extra this-or-that.

Thanks to immortal characters, the drama is drained out of my game. Combat is fun, but never scary. Minions will be hacked through, brutes worn down, and not all controller and lurker powers are rechargeable. We're back to a PC-DM arms race at worst. At best the party fondly reminiscing about the two heroic characters that died at 3rd level several months ago (again, thanks to the save-or-die encounter feature,) more than the latest group of monsters they utterly dismantled last encounter.

I welcome any suggestions, because I've already tried everything in the rules, especially game clock management. I need a realistic model that fits the average 4-5 encounters a day the players are hitting. My ideas right now include any or all of the following:

• Halving the base number of healing surges (not the constitution bonus surges.)
• Increasing the Heal skill check to Stabilize the Dying from DC15 to DC15 plus character level (This is a "the harder they fall" philosophy that offsets skill progression by level.)
• Limit post-"dying" healing to Bloodied hit points until an extended rest is taken.
• Bring back the negative hit point track- you have to heal out a hole, not jump back into the fight at 1/4 hit points and higher.
• An extended rest does NOT heal all hit points- you have to dig into your new day's allotment of healing surges for that.
• Eliminate Second Winds.

Thanks in advance for your comments, because this is really making our combats about as suspenseful as Bingo Night.

-Alveric

[Aristotle]

I can't deny most of what you're saying isn't true. It is. Death is more frequently a threat in my campaign than your describing, and I still see the fear in my players' eyes when the defender goes down with half the enemies still up... but mostly because of the threat of a TPK. A character or two dying is a speedbump. A drain on party resources. Then again I've always felt that was the case in previous editions as well, which is why I've tended to raise the levels and costs of raise dead spells/rituals or even remove them entirely from some campaigns.

[Ahwe Yahzhe]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

I can't deny most of what you're saying isn't true. It is. Death is more frequently a threat in my campaign than your describing, and I still see the fear in my players' eyes when the defender goes down with half the enemies still up... but mostly because of the threat of a TPK. A character or two dying is a speedbump. A drain on party resources. Then again I've always felt that was the case in previous editions as well, which is why I've tended to raise the levels and costs of raise dead spells/rituals or even remove them entirely from some campaigns.

That's my point- it takes a TPK or a PC-DM arms race (where higher level challenges accelerate the advancement of the PCs in power and magic items) to actually make players worried in combat. Never mind the level and cost of a Raise Dead spell in 4th Edition (both too low), there is a scarcity of death because of the too-numerous safeguards that have been designed in the rules to prevent it.

[Evilhalfling]

In a four person party with a warlord as only healer, death is alot closer. In 3 of 4 sessions have had one or more players dropping below zero.
Last session the defender failed two death saves and two players missed heal checks - the party burned its last healing potion to avoid his death.

and while the defender never runs out of surges, the rogue and warlord have been down to 0-2 after a few fights.

[Saben]

My players died just fine...

In Kobold Hall, the White Dragon at the end got next to my already weakened Fighter... crit with one of his claw attacks, hit with the other, then bite and oh.. crap... sorry, you're dead already! I gave them a gimmee on that one through roleplay- the priest in the town resurrected him in return for a favour of babysitting some children... But needless to say the party has been a bit more cautious since then...

[infocynic]

Originally Posted by Saben

My players died just fine...

In Kobold Hall, the White Dragon at the end got next to my already weakened Fighter... crit with one of his claw attacks, hit with the other, then bite and oh.. crap... sorry, you're dead already! I gave them a gimmee on that one through roleplay- the priest in the town resurrected him in return for a favour of babysitting some children... But needless to say the party has been a bit more cautious since then...

Yep, two of my PCs died against the White Dragon, and in KOTS, the Paladin died from massive damage vs Irontooth who hit him twice for seriously high damage when the Pally was at 8 HP... took him straight to negative bloodied.

But since that fight, I don't think I've even managed to knock one of them unconscious/dying, and they're about half done exploring the first level.

[GoodKingJayIII]

I've only just started my 4e campaign, so it's difficult for me to really address your problems with concrete experience. I will say that others have not had the same experience as you, and have found combat quite challenging and deadly (reporting one or more PCs down per combat). Hopefully one of them will come here and share their experience.

I think tactics make a huge difference in 4e combat. Players have a much greater tactical advantage at the table than the DM. You may be an excellent tactician, but there is only one of you and 5 of them in a typical game. Their pool of tactical ideas is much greater than yours, even if they're not that good at tactics. I think that can have a big impact on the lethality of your combats.

[Cadfan]

Remember, you get 3 failed death checks per encounter, not per time you drop below 0 hp. Fail a death check, get healed, rise to your feet, and drop again... and you've only got 2 death checks this time.

Also note that a lot of the non magical ways to stabilize or heal you involve letting you use your second wind. This is also once per encounter, and you may have used it trying to stay alive in the first place.

As for the general difficulty, please remember that an encounter of equal level to yours is NOT supposed to lead to character death. You should be able to get through encounters of even +3 levels to yours without character death, though at the +3 mark it may be a close thing, or you may have to use a lot of daily powers. The game is not designed to have equal chances of victory between the DM and the PCs. The PCs are supposed to win unless they make poor decisions, or take on obviously unsafe battles.

[Mathew_Freeman]

From reading what the OP has written, it sounds like your monsters aren't working tactically as well as the PC's are.

So have a think about this:

Are your monsters ganging up on PC's, or are they spreading out and attacking everyone at once?

Are you taking advantage of movement powers and high speed monsters to go after the weaker members of the party?

Personally, I have a hard time running monsters to their best ability. I have a real reluctance to really go after characters and try and kill them - I think I'm slightly afraid of what might happen if I kill someone's character.

I don't think the 4e system is at fault here quite as much as you do. Sure, PC's can get back up again - but you have to remember that monster tactics are in your hands. If you want to play smart - do so! Have the monsters fall back, pick up reinforcements, run for help, get behind cover and so on.

Also - make sure you go over the rules for healing surges, check that your players have the right amount and that they're using them correctly. Characters certainly don't have an 'infinite' number, and it may be that they're getting the rules long, which continues the problem.

If your players are willing to take OA's to lend another character a chance to use their Second Wind, then all credit to them - but smart enemies are going to take advantage of this and make sure they mob up properly.

What classes and races are your players playing, and how many do you have?

[keterys]

I've only killed two characters - I'm not really running games intended to get people killed, though.

The article talks about it, but death is rarely caused by one roll. Being in the area of a black dragon's breath, after already negative? Yeah, that's an issue. Any kind of ongoing is an issue. Being in environmental hazards (caveins, etc) - that's an issue. Death doesn't poof just happen, it's something that is a danger if the players don't immediately respond to someone dropping to 0.

So, I'm quite happy with things in that respect.

[Nebulous]

Originally Posted by Tallarn

Personally, I have a hard time running monsters to their best ability. I have a real reluctance to really go after characters and try and kill them - I think I'm slightly afraid of what might happen if I kill someone's character.

I have this reluctance as well, but i think that a DM that really wants (wants?) to kill a PC can do it. It will probably take some planning, targeting a weakness that you know a PC has, and then trying to simultaneously hamper his allies from helping. We had one character die in the Irontooth encounter, but i have had them drop to negative several times, and don't think it would be that hard to engineer a tough fight without ending in a TPK.

I don't think the 4e system is at fault here quite as much as you do. Sure, PC's can get back up again - but you have to remember that monster tactics are in your hands. If you want to play smart - do so! Have the monsters fall back, pick up reinforcements, run for help, get behind cover and so on.

Also - make sure you go over the rules for healing surges, check that your players have the right amount and that they're using them correctly. Characters certainly don't have an 'infinite' number, and it may be that they're getting the rules long, which continues the problem.

I haven't even started to use coup de grace against fallen PCs, but this is a highly reasonable tactic, although players will likely hate you for it.

"Why...exactly...did those three bugbears stab my unconscious body? There are bigger threats around!"

I do agree that there are a CRAPLOAD of healing surges, and i'm sure that sometimes people get the math wrong. That's one aspect of the game that was much easier to monitor in 1st, 2nd, 3rd edition, how much healing the characters how. Now, that's all in their hands. Sure, i can try to keep tabs on it, but the DM has plenty to worry about already.

[ValhallaGH]

My first four sessions all ended with a TPK.

I was running normal adventures for (slightly) smaller parties. Players often made major tactical mistakes.

PCs die in 4E. If they don't in your games then a) they're good players, b) they're lucky with die rolls, c) you're taking it easy on them.
If none of those three seem true then c) is true and you just don't realize it.

[the Jester]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

Remember, you get 3 failed death checks per encounter, not per time you drop below 0 hp.

This is a huge factor, and we've been doing it wrong all this time.

I bet there'd have been another death or two imc by now if I'd been using this rule correctly. But que sera sera. I'm still actually quite pleased with the dying rules- you have a chance to save your pal when he's down, but you better get on it!

[Mengu]

When people are hit by AoE's and aura's while they are down, or they fall unconscious inside a trap or zone that keeps dealing damage, they can die from going negative bloodied, especially at low to mid heroic levels.

Also someone who runs out of healing surges, may be difficult to save without a paladin.

Otherwise, the combat has to come close to a TPK, for one person to fail enough death saves to die before they can be rescued. In a 6-man party death will be a lot rarer than in a 4-man party, because there is always someone available to help the dying. Immobilizing, dazing, and stunning effects can make it difficult to help the dying.

[Walking Dad]

My character died vs Irontooth (KoTSF).

Just my expirience.