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D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
I've not seen any discussion on the epic character podcast - if there has, please point me to it and I'll join in existing discussion!
I listened to it today, and although I've looked forward to hearing something about epic level playtesting, I was left with mixed feelings. There are a couple of issues that jumped out as I listened.
1) two people created 21st level wizards, and they ended up almost the same, with largely the same encounter powers daily powers. The DM said that he got fed up with seeing the same storm cage being used by both wizards encounter after encounter. This concerns me because at low level it seems that PCs can easily be a bit 'samey', and I had rather hoped that this wouldn't be the case at higher levels. I suppose the issue is that when there is only a relatively few encounter and daily powers even at high level, it becomes harder to differentiate yourselves (especially if some powers stand out as being much better at a given level).
2) At least one of the players said that they used a laptop at the table to keep track of all the powers and how everything factored together. Gah! 3e had got to the stage when I felt I needed a laptop at the table to manage everything; I hoped that 4e would have eliminated that, but perhaps not...
3) The DM said that epic minions just weren't working. They might effectively form a bit of terrain for a round but that is it. This pretty much gels with some of the discussions I've been in here on ENworld, where doubt is cast on the effectiveness of minions from paragon tier upwards in the light of all the 'auto damage' effects which are out there.
There was some quite interesting discussion about what makes an effective 'epic destiny', but none of the other things particularly stood out for me.
Anyone else listen to it? Positive points you drew from it? Do you agree/disagree with my observations?
__________________ Creating monsters and want to make them look nice? Try using my Word Template.
Monster Manual doesn't have enough monster options? Use my monsters!
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I dislike podcast in general. I tend to be a visual learner, so if I am just listening into someone describing something I miss allot, especially if I am trying to listen for something specific. It's the same reason I don't listen to talk shows on the radio anymore. A transcript, or even a time line helps this a bit though.
At the current time there are only about 3 different major ways to make each class, so you are going to see allot of "sameness". Wait for the splats to help this I suppose.
The minion problem started showing up for me at level 5 with a Dragonborn and a Wizard in the party, minions just ended up being a pushover lasting maybe two rounds and not doing much of anything. I can totally see the epic minion problem even worse. If you like to use minions eventually your players are going to pick up an AoE power or two, each, just to monopolize on them. Even if you don't use minions all that often, some AoE powers are just that good, or mesh so well with some class powers (fighter marks for example), that most players end up picking one anyway.
The best use of minions I have had so far is by giving them ranged attacks and having them surround from afar and spread out from the party. That way they still die, but they get a few more hits in, and someone has to spend more than just one round clearing them out.
I don't allow computers at my games when I am DMing, I do allow printouts however. Barbaric I know, but they end up being way to much of a distraction with people looking things up or watching movies in between their turns. Honestly I don't see the need for a full program to play, a clipboard with 5 sheets of paper (double sided to save trees) is more than enough to record the combat stats for a character.
__________________ If "A" is broken, that isn't a valid reason for "B" to be so, even if they vary in degree.
Tactician style Gamer, or so I have been told.
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."-Albert Einstein
So, just listened to it - I am surprised that both wizards made themselves the same. I realize there are only 4 paragon paths, but that's usually the kind of thing that people go "So, I'm focusing on storm magic and these types of powers, bla bla" and the others goes "Damn, so am I. You got a good backup option? I guess I could try Bloodmage and some of the more cold and necrotic things.... eh, let's just flip a coin and loser changes."
The minions echo the feedback I gave in the other thread as levels increased, and I am glad to have one of the WotC guys pipe up. Shame that wasn't there before to help convince people who thought there was no problem.
Some people like their laptops, or power cards, or whatever. I memorize all my powers and tick them off along with my hp on a slip of paper. To each their own, there. As long as I never again see someone arrange 23 sticky notes around their character to track all of their buffs and I don't have to track the party's progress through a
dungeon round by round so they know when they lose buffs (119 rounds that tower took...)
__________________ Creating monsters and want to make them look nice? Try using my Word Template.
Monster Manual doesn't have enough monster options? Use my monsters!
Not sure if a power is balanced? Discuss grading at-will, encounter, and dailies.
I like candy.
Powers as jellybabies .. bite their heads off when used, eat the rest and replace when recharged.
Minions as M&Ms .. your kill, your bonus.
So it's a potentially fatal habit, but it's one up on shotglass chess.
__________________ The Passion of Lovers is for Death
1) two people created 21st level wizards, and they ended up almost the same, with largely the same encounter powers daily powers.
It's possible that may be coincidence, though some of the criticisms of 4e's lower power choice may hold true.
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2) At least one of the players said that they used a laptop at the table to keep track of all the powers and how everything factored together. Gah! 3e had got to the stage when I felt I needed a laptop at the table to manage everything; I hoped that 4e would have eliminated that, but perhaps not...
Some people just prefer laptops over character sheets. In my case, my writing is atrocious, so maybe a laptop might help me out on that front. I wouldn't read too much into that one.
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Anyone else listen to it? Positive points you drew from it? Do you agree/disagree with my observations?
My concerns over the D&D podcast generally stem from the POV of audio quality. It sounds like the mic is at a table and everyone is sharing, rather than everyone having their own mic. If WotC is the leader of the RPG industry, they should have a podcast to match.
I'm somewhat disappointed if minions don't hold up in higher level. Perhaps an additional rule, Minions need to be hit twice by Auto-hits before dying?
The odd thing about minions: If 4 minions = 1 standard, how come it takes more then 4 hits before you're able to kill a standard?
Maybe 1 Standard should be worth 8 minions from Paragon level upwards?
I'm somewhat disappointed if minions don't hold up in higher level. Perhaps an additional rule, Minions need to be hit twice by Auto-hits before dying?
The odd thing about minions: If 4 minions = 1 standard, how come it takes more then 4 hits before you're able to kill a standard?
Maybe 1 Standard should be worth 8 minions from Paragon level upwards?
I was having just this thought this morning. I'm going to start watching my own games and analyzing what it takes to down a monster and using that to think about how many minions should equal a regular monster. The fact that minions get crushed by AoE should be another factor in giving them extra numbers.
__________________ Disclaimer--I do not think that anyone else plays the game "incorrectly," unless their players are not having fun. I am a "both/and" kind of guy, not an "either/or." However, I often explain what I like in a way that sounds like I'm saying my way is better, because it's easier to write that way and more fun. Also, s.
This is actually a little surprising, since I feel 4E Wizards have some of the best options in terms of Paragon Paths - so I suspect this is more coincidence than anything else.
2) Laptop Usage
I've run some high-level one-shots, and haven't felt the complexity factor has scaled nearly as much as it did in 3rd Edition. Some people just like using laptops to track info - and I suspect that if they are playing higher-level characters for the first few times, that extra bit of clarity may be useful.
3) Minions
On this one, though, I definitely have to agree. I like the concept of minions, but there seems a few too many ways to auto-kill them without even needing to roll - or, at higher levels, effects big enough to easily target a dozen minions at once. From fighter stances that slice up those next to them, to Lightning weapons that deal a smidgen of damage to all the enemies in an area, to massive area effects like Solar Wrath that attack every enemy in a combat (or the above mentioned Stormcage, which is essentially all three), minions sometimes seem a bit too easy to get rid of - and while they should be easy to drop, it shouldn't be incidental.
Now, things that can be done about this without fundamentally changing how they work:
1) Have them come in waves - skeletons rising from the grave every round, devils teleporting in, etc. This both lets you throw a lot of them at PCs without overwhelming them, and prevents any one area effect from wiping them out.
2) Provide a 'buffer', in the form of temporary hitpoints or resistance to elemental damage the party is inclined to throw around. Temporary hp can be acquired through allies (like the Kobold Wyrmpriest) while to get the resistance one wants, you can hunt down the appropriate minion (such as Legion Devils for Resist Fire) and reskin them as whatever type of minion you plan on using.
3) Spread out. Fight in a large open space with minions never clumped up enough that they can easily be dealt with at once. Choose minions with ranged attacks to let them attack the PCs without needing to close into one area - or try to divide up the PCs and have a few minions go after each one.
4) Use higher level minions. This won't protect against auto-damage effects, but will help with the massive area effects, as higher defenses will keep them alive for longer.
If those still don't work, here are some ways to directly enhance minions:
1) Instead of "minions don't take damage on a miss", change it to "minions only take damage on a hit." This prevents auto-damage effects from killing minions and means that, in order to kill them, players must be actively trying to take them out.
2) It takes two hits. The first time a minion is damaged, they go to bloodied. The second time, they die. This simply makes them tougher, and means one action won't do them in. On the other hand, enough auto-damage effects will still take them out - and this makes it much harder for those who are fighting them normally.
3) Damage Threshold. Give minion's Resist 'x' all - maybe Resist 5 at Heroic, 10 at Paragon, 15 at Epic. This prevents tiny amount of automatic damage from doing them in. And as long as the right number is chosen, pretty much all normal attacks of the right level will still do them in. You might even be able to remove the "minions aren't damaged on a miss", if the numbers are right - any miss that is small enough won't get through the Resist, while a character launching their most powerful daily won't watch in sorrow as it bounces off several minions.
I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but from my experiences running an epic game, here's my take on things.
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Originally Posted by Plane Sailing
1) two people created 21st level wizards, and they ended up almost the same, with largely the same encounter powers daily powers. The DM said that he got fed up with seeing the same storm cage being used by both wizards encounter after encounter. This concerns me because at low level it seems that PCs can easily be a bit 'samey', and I had rather hoped that this wouldn't be the case at higher levels. I suppose the issue is that when there is only a relatively few encounter and daily powers even at high level, it becomes harder to differentiate yourselves (especially if some powers stand out as being much better at a given level).
I wouldn't read anything into this. Our game has a Storm Mage, an artificer using Battle Mage becuase there aren't any Artificer PPs, and a player looking at making a Blood Mage.
I can see where there would be a lot of overlap in power selection because there really are "best" choices for most levels of wizard spells, and they get to pick two dailies and utilities per level.
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2) At least one of the players said that they used a laptop at the table to keep track of all the powers and how everything factored together. Gah! 3e had got to the stage when I felt I needed a laptop at the table to manage everything; I hoped that 4e would have eliminated that, but perhaps not...
I use a laptop when running, and two players use computers as well. They're usually just for looking up rules or adding XP to an electronic character sheet as soon as it's awarded. The three other players don't use them at all. Nobody uses them to track their powers, those are done with printed sheets or power cards. You can definitely play 4e without anyone in the group owning a computer.
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3) The DM said that epic minions just weren't working. They might effectively form a bit of terrain for a round but that is it. This pretty much gels with some of the discussions I've been in here on ENworld, where doubt is cast on the effectiveness of minions from paragon tier upwards in the light of all the 'auto damage' effects which are out there.
Minions blow chunks at epic levels, becomeing effectively free XP if you've got a wizard, cleric, or fighter in the party. Our house rules are:
When a Minion would normally be destroyed, they are instead knocked down. If they take any damage while knocked down, they are destroyed. Otherwise they make a saving throw on their turn. If they fail, they twitch one final time, attack an adjacent target while prone, and they die. If they succeed, they act normally. If an attack that does damage on a miss hits, it destroys the minion., If an attack is a critical hit, it destroys the minion.
#1) I'm surprised they did not go Storm and Blood... but I don't think it's too much of a problem.
#2) Laptops are bad for some groups, and for others they're okay. I think item powers will need a lot of writing or an extra sheet of paper or something.
#3) I think minions are a sweet idea, but they do need some fix. The aforementioned damage threshold is one of my favorite minion house rules. I also think that twice damaged minions dying is also a good rule.
I do like that twitching minion final attack idea. Positive points... it makes me want to run or play an epic game. A lot.
__________________ I think I've found some dice groups. Good stuff. This site said I have Str: 7, Dex: 11, Con: 8, Int: 13, Wis: 11, Cha: 15.
I like the twitching too, and wish I could take credit for it. I swiped it from one of the "minions don't work" threads. It was originally used to make zombies more zombie-ish, but it works well mechanically for all minions (at least at Epic). The flavor of it fits zombies a lot better than it fits troglodytes though. The best part is how easy it is to track. The minion is either fine, laying down on the mat and needs to save, or dead.
My original idea involved pseudo-hit points based on their tier and all sorts of tiny bits that could be forgotten easily. This one works much better.
I'd probably go two directions: allow minions saves to avoid death at Paragon, and a Save with a bonus at Epic and then also mix in normal creatures at much lower level in small amounts with minions for bulk.
I like the twitching too, and wish I could take credit for it. I swiped it from one of the "minions don't work" threads. It was originally used to make zombies more zombie-ish, but it works well mechanically for all minions (at least at Epic). The flavor of it fits zombies a lot better than it fits troglodytes though. The best part is how easy it is to track. The minion is either fine, laying down on the mat and needs to save, or dead.
My original idea involved pseudo-hit points based on their tier and all sorts of tiny bits that could be forgotten easily. This one works much better.
Oh man, that is really zombie-tastic. I like it a lot. I'm now trying to think of alternate minion rules for all levels...
Oh yeah, I forgot the most important part of this whole podcast.
Genasi's pronunciation.
__________________ I think I've found some dice groups. Good stuff. This site said I have Str: 7, Dex: 11, Con: 8, Int: 13, Wis: 11, Cha: 15.
I consider myself a 4E Fanboy, so it disheartens me to hear of these sorts of problems with my favorite game. Alas, the honeymoon couldn't last forever.
4E will eventually need a revision, as the shine is already wearing off and the flaws in the design are beginning to show. Personally, I welcome the thought of an eventual revision, rebalancing the game elements in the context of the whole, after all the power sources have been released. Then again, I'm the sort of guy who loves updates, too.
Finally listened to it. The thing that stood out most to me is that they need to invest in better microphones or tell people to speak up. I couldn't hear anything one of them said without risking blowing out my speakers if anyone else talked. I know he's playing a Daggermaster, but that's about it.
Other than that, it seems like they've had the same general experiences we have. That's good, since it means that (hopefully) future products will fix those issues.
s. 
Linear Mode
