Where are all of the templates?

[-Avalon-]

DM's guide says easy way to make a monster elite is to add a template, make a solo by adding two templates...

Small selection of templates in DM's Guide, and one or two more in forgottent realms books... but are there any others out there that are official?

[DracoSuave]

Originally Posted by -Avalon-

DM's guide says easy way to make a monster elite is to add a template, make a solo by adding two templates...

Small selection of templates in DM's Guide, and one or two more in forgottent realms books... but are there any others out there that are official?

Templates aren't really the direction the game is going. They don't come up often enough to really justify a large number of them beyond the number they have.

[fba827]

i'm sure we'll see more in the DMG2, and maybe some more tossed around in Dragon Magazine at some point. But, you are right, as of now, there is only a small selection.

of course, how much you use templates depends on your group/game style/prep time/etc.

since the focus for the edition is quick prep, as dacosuave said, i don't think templates are a huge focus for this edition, which would explain the limited number.

(for me, personally, it's fine since my group's game style and my prep time limit my need for templates)

[-Avalon-]

Well, my group is Uber-Tactics people, group of semi-genius types, so I have to do more than just throw stuff together... I have to design the dungeon or setting, down to last detail of what wood they used to make the table, etc etc...

And I have to make encounters that are truly challenging when each of these people play strategy type games without even paying attention have the time...

In this case, my players tend to memorize at a glance, the tactics their enemies use, and if they see a trend of any sort they learn it, and by the third fight, they suffer almost no wounds whatsoever...

Btw, this is with me using 2100 XP fights vs a group of lvl 4's... And they are slaughtering for 4 milestones at a time...

[Radiating Gnome]

How many level 4s are you talking about? That makes a big difference in the scale of the encounter.

You can, of course, also use the class templates in the DMG to add PC powers to existing creatures -- there's a whole lot of surprises there -- PC powers tend to be pretty kickass.

But, IMO, your problem isn't really going to be solved by templates, I don't think. It's tough to challenge a very tactically astute group -- especially one that knows the books backwards and forwards.

Start looking for combinations of terrain and creature that packs a lot of punch -- and really use the environment to make life complicated for the party. One of my first TPKs with 4e was an encounter in which I combined (among other stuff) a howling hag and an elite daggerthorn briar. Combine the serious stopping power of the briar with an opponent that can push the PCs into the reach of it, and you've got a reciept for a whole lot of hurting.

The primary idea of a template is that it gives you a structure for creating a longer-lasting, more resilient and possibly more interesting adversary. The whole 4e philosophy, though, is that you don't need to worry about doing that sort of development "by the numbers". So long as you can sleep at night, and your players are having fun, you can pretty much do anything you want to them (so long as it stays fun).

This is one of the changes in the system that is hard to put into books -- it's sort of woven into the genetic code of the game -- there are guidelines for making your monsters up yourself -- some numeric guides for what they should do -- but what I really recommend that you do is stop looking for something you can plug in, and start thinking about what would be cool and surprising to your ubermensch.

One last thought -- one I forget from time to time as I'm desigining stuff for my groups. The PCs are supposed to win (just about) every single time -- and nailbiter combats actually stand out better if there are a handful of not so stressful combats surrounding them -- if every combat is a knife's edge from TPK, that probably means that players aren't having as much fun as they might -- there are cool abilities and fun things to do that players won't do in combats that are right out there on the bleeding edge. Slightly easier combat can give them license to be a bit more cinematic and wild from time to time.

-j

[Shroomy]

The huecuva in Dragon 364 is the only one that I'm aware of outside of the DMG and FRCG.

[-Avalon-]

Out of maybe 60 encounters, the players have felt a "twinge" of fear only 3 times, and then it was only for a round or two each time...

One was chapel with an elite skullcleaver and an elite hexer, with some buddies... just a brutal fight, and probably the only time the group made a tactical mistake. They split the group to come into the chapel two ways to prevent runners, but in effect, they only split their effectiveness.

Second was a hallway fight with a library off of it, had hobgoblin archers lined up at far end of hallways, with minions being the cannon fodder to blockade PC's...

Last was a bed chamber, with hobgoblin warcasters and archers. The antechamber to the bedroom had a trap of whirling blades. Hobgoblin Warcasters kept pushing people back into it, while archers fired arrows galore.

I have 6 players, all lvl 4: Fighter, Swordmage, Cleric, Warlord, Rogue, Ranger

The module they are starting on now is into the ancient ruins under the city where there are catacombs, sewers, and a ruined temple that the city was built on top of. Enemies will include Goblins, Kruthiks, and Undead (both corporeal and incorporeal)

Any ideas?

[Radiating Gnome]

First, if you're designing these things yourself, think about using fewer Elites, if any. Your post got me thinking about Elites in encounter and monster design, and I sat down to look at the action economy (among other things) in a blog post here.

The Gist is this -- an Elite lasts twice as long, but doesn't get twice as many actions (with the exception of an action point, once). So, if you pit your part of 6 against an appropriate group of lvl 4 normals, those normals will get 6 attacks per round. Against Elites, the monsters get 3 attacks per round (assuming only standard actions are attacks).

If the party takes down one normal opponent per round, the group of 6 gets a grand total of 21 actions to attack the part, while the Elites get 12 (+3 maybe for action points to 15).

6 normals: 6 actions 1st round+ 5 second round , +4+3+2+1 = 21.
3 Elites: 3 actions first round+ 3 actions 2nd round+ 2 actions 3rd round +2+1+1=12, then +3 for action points = 15.

Remember that in most cases, whlie Elites built from templates have more options for attacks, they don't actually get more attacks, and their attacks per round are not more effective.

Also, a larger number of opponents makes it more likely that the monsters will be able to take advantage of lapses in tactics from your players -- many more opportunities to flank, to attack someone other than the defenders, etc.

Also, I'd look at throwing in some minions if you're really looking to make them sweat. The party doesn't have a controller -- which means they have limited access to AOE attacks. That means that it's going to take an actual action from a character to take out a minion, meanwhile all of those minions are out there getting in the party's way, providing flanks, causing damage, etc.

You cam dummy up your own minions quickly by taking a typical creature of that level, stripping out all special attacks, changing their damage to something like minimum damage. That's not perfect (I often decide the damage is a little low and add a point or two) but it works, and it's fast.

-j

[-Avalon-]

Sorry if I am posting a lot, but at work, and have not much to do, so I keep constant eye on forums to get as much assistance as possible =)

Elites usually get 1.5 attacks per round, or 3 per 2... reason is, most elites have a way of retaliating for different actions. Best case of this is the Savage Berserker (I believe is correct name) who makes a basic attack back against the person who attacked them. So, when placed against a fighter who is tanking them, they will get to attack the fighter 2 times (assuming their cool ability isn't a double attack anyway, like irontooth in Keep on the Shadowfell, which would actually result in 3 or 4 attacks per rd)

As for minions... ranger takes out 2, fighter takes out 2, swordmage takes out between 2 and 8 depending on how they work it and when I introduce the minions into the fight, as a general rule, my group takes out the 12-20 minions I use in fights within 1 or 2 rds, and then begin taking down 2 normals a round, if not more normals...

Oh, and reason I use elites every once in awhile... the highest AC in group is 24 I believe, average AC is around 22... All skills are covered with at least +11, avg plus to hit is around +9 or 10, without circumstantial bonuses from warlord or whatever...

so my normals almost never hit, need around 15 to hit most times, and do like 1d6 + 4... the enemies die without the players spending more than 1 healing surge most times...

[ValhallaGH]

... What the heck kind of character generation did you use, to get all these supermen in your campaign?

[-Avalon-]

Nothing special, is not a matter of special generation rules... is a matter of how analytical and tactical my players are...

When they built their characters, they literally went through the skill list and said, "Ok, who is covering ... ?" on each one, to make sure all were covered, then planned out having certain odd stats so that at 4 they would get the +1 to 2 stats and gain points to be used elsewhere on their characters, and all sorts of stuff...

The swordmage took human to get the most ac from picking feat: Hide armor, etc etc... These guys literally do strategy and tactics down to the tiniest detail, and the ONLY problem they are having is with traps...

Traps have DC's set so high up that rogues really cannot do them right...

pendulum scythes: DC 27 to see the CP, DC 22 to disarm. And at 4th level the best perception is around 12 or 13, thievery is around 15 or so because of all sorts of things though... so the ELF and only the elf, must see the CP first with a roll of 15, then the rogue can roll his 7 to disarm... lol

and the rest are like that also... this group has figured out the exact percentage chance to find and disable the traps, and have decided they will always take the first pop froma a trap, then they will just destroy it... lol... All characters can participate and it has lesser DCs involved (avg ac on traps is around 14 or 15 at this level).

[ricardo440]

I also have to say that doesn't seem right.

Though I don't rate minions (they are certainly of less value than 1/4 a real monster) I've got to say dropping 2 normal creatures a round is a very high damage rate.

[ValhallaGH]

To have the skill bonuses you're talking about, they all have to have either an 18+ in their skill stats (+11 - 5 [trained] - 2 [level] = +4 from ability, feats and race), or have only chosen skills that they get racial bonuses to. I'm sure they had both on several occaisions. This means you're using something other than the standard array. What are you using?

Average AC 22 = 10 + 2 (level) + 2 (enchant - slightly high but not bad) + 8 (armor / ability combination). So, the guy(s) in Hide armor (+3) has a 20+ Dex / Int. The Fighter must be in Plate or using a shield (or both). The Cleric is really confusing with Chainmail (+5, heavy) since he can't top a 19 at this level without having a wastefully high Dex / Int and being in light armor, or spending a feat for better armor. The Warlord can at least use a shield.

As you've described them, your players are munchkins who've mastered the rules and squeezed every bit of mechanical advantage out of them that they can. That's a pretty big advantage from their side in any combat.
So, use fewer combat encounters. Focus on RP encounters, skill encounters, traps, puzzles, and areas where everyone, not just one character with a good skill bonus, has to participate. Emphasize the RP in RP encounters, only using die rolls when you need to know how well a particular statement was made.

And don't be affraid to split these guys up in a fight. Use terrain that separates and issolates. As a team, 4E PCs are a juggernaut. Individually, they're merely okay.
Don't be affraid to use custom built foes. The monster creation rules are fast, simple, and open to whatever craziness you want to do. Best of all, your players will probably have no idea what combinations of abilities you've put onto your custom beasties for at least two encounters.
And feel free to demand copies of their sheets. You need to know what they can do to keep the game fun and interesting for everyone.

Final advice: Ask your players for feedback about the game. You might be surprised how things look from their side of the screen.

[Radiating Gnome]

That does seem like a very, very high rate of attack.

If you're having a problem with your normals being able to hit the ACs of your players, I still think you're better off using normals -- just higher level normals -- rather that elites. Hell, throw a cyclops at them for fun.

I hate to point out to you that the example traps in the DMG are an uncorrected throwback to the old skill check DCs that have been errated. If you check out some of the newer stuff on traps -- Mearls has an article that came out in the past couple of months, for example -- most of the newer trap and hazard DCs are much lower than the ones in the DMG. If I were you, and that's the one way you're making your player sweat, I'd leave it that way.

But . . . if the biggest problem is that your normals are having a hard time hitting your PCs . . . why not give them a +5 bonus to all to hit rolls across the board. Just make it DM fiat. Maybe +5 is too high. Maybe +2. I mean . . . don't be shackled by a belief that you need to challenge them "by the book", stick to some concrete formulas or only use sanctioned print stock to fight them with. If you need your monsters to have a better chance to hit, give it to them.

Just keep your eye on the ball -- the goal is for the players to have fun.

-j

[Radiating Gnome]

Originally Posted by -Avalon-

Elites usually get 1.5 attacks per round, or 3 per 2... reason is, most elites have a way of retaliating for different actions.....

Yeah, that's true, but any party worth it's salt isn't spreading it's attacks around the board. If there are three elites, and the Elites have a counterattack power, the players are probably only going to be exposed to one of those counterattacks, not three.

If you accept a +1 attack per round for the sake of argument, that's 12(base)+3(action points) +6(counterattacks) = 21.

Damn those math nerds the wotc guys have locked up in the basement are good.

Still . . . . and now I'm venturing away from what I can "prove" with numbers but what "seems true" in all it's truthiness . . . I still think that there are factors that mitigate the threat of elites vs normals. For one thing, the PCs are only exposed to those counterattacks on their terms -- after the first one they're going to know what's coming and only expose themselves to that attack if they are prepared to take that damage. If they're on the ropes, they avoid those attacks. And those attacks are focused on the Melee types, probably the defenders, rather than being a threat to a wider variety of party members.

But . . . it doesn't sound like the OP's problem is Elites after all -- he's using some, but it also sounds like he's playing with a group of tough min-maxers.

[-Avalon-]

Yes, min-maxers to the core, and extreme... And yes, I realize that the Swordmage took a 20 in his main stat, this was to offset the fact that the fighter had an extra +1 over him, and also gave him a 21 AC to start the game...

Since everything we are doing is by the book... how do I challenge them, by the book?

I realize most players have more well balanced characters, but these guys build their characters with weaknesses they know are covered by other players' strengths, as a true team should be, and know tactics well enough that I never get to capitalize on a weakness...

That coupled with the new treasure parcel mechanic, gives the players exactly what items they want within a given reasonable amount of time, so they have characters built exactly how they want them...

[fba827]

You could also try creating your own monsters (or take exsiting monsters and alter them to your own creation, even without a template).

[ValhallaGH]

Originally Posted by -Avalon-

Since everything we are doing is by the book... how do I challenge them, by the book?

Because you seem to have overlooked it before, I will repeat myself, only larger.
Split. Them. Up. Walls, clouds, mobile terrain, deadfalls, and any other trap, trick, or device that you can put into an encounter.

Make Everyone Participate. Even the guys that have a weakness in the skill. Especially the guys that are weak in the skill.

[fba827]

Yeah , to continue on what the above poster said, maybe make the challenge more based on envirornment and terrain rather than by monsters.

I don't know what type of layout you have for your combat, but, for instance don't have open field combats; there should be pits and narrow coridors to make bottle necks, ledges from which snipers can snipe, maybe obstacles (pits, bridges) or traps (fire jets or teleportation triggers) in the same room -- stuff that diverts attention from the monster tactics that the group already knows and makes the danger the fact that the environment isn't as stable as they assume.

Of course, you may well already be doing this (and I admit I did not fully read all of your posts).

[avin]

Dude, I'd hate to DM to your players... as you describe it seems a mind numbing dice rolling...