Sustained powers that "Save Ends"?

[CapnZapp]

The issue here is that "save ends" is directed towards the sustaining bit. How are we supposed to know this? Because the effect of sustaining is not ongoing.

This is very confusing for newbies. It would have been a great help if there was explicit text to address this, such as "If the target saves, you cannot sustain this power" to separate this case from the more usual case for "save ends", namely that a save ends the condition or ongoing damage you're currently suffering from.

In this case, what you're suffering from is the evils of a sustainable power, and this is what the save ends. Probably too subtle - a case where cutting down on verbose rules language probably was a bad call. Specifically: having to process the effect in order to understand what "save ends" is directed at introduces a somewhat complicated extra step that I would say is not good design.

---

Contrast with a hypotethical power with either of these lines:
Sustain minor: Target take ongoing 5 damage (save ends)
Sustain minor: Target is pulled 1 square (save ends)
Sustain minor: Target is slowed (save ends)

Do you see the fundamental difference between cases 1 & 3 on one hand, and case 2 on the other? Well, a newbie might easily miss this.

In fact, this is exactly what made me start this thread... :-/

[Danceofmasks]

Originally Posted by DracoSuave

danceofmasks: You can't save against 'a single melee attack against an ally', as that's not an durational effect. That's like save ends against a fireball.


So therefore (save ends) cannot -possibly- apply to that as it would a condition. That's nonsense. The only thing that save ends can effect is the power itself.

Also, zones are persistant effects on an area, by definition. You can't (save ends) a zone, because a zone is not an effect on you. You can, however, (save ends) the effects the zone creates, which is a different story altogether.

Umm, dude!
That's exactly what I've been saying.
The (save ends) must be applied to the power as a whole, and therefore, the enemy gets a save before your first sustain.

[CapnZapp]

This begs the question: what would an exhaustive and authorative answer to the question "which persistent effects or conditions that can be ended by a save are included in the game?" be?

In the above example, "take ongoing damage" is clearly a persistent effect. And so is "slowed". (Actually, it's a condition, not an effect. But the results are the same.)

But apparently, "make a melee basic attack against one of your adjacent allies" is not. And this is the only clue you get that the "save ends" should be applied to a completely different mechanic, namely the fact this effect is sustainable?

It would be much cleaner not to have to ask yourself "is the effect something that can be ended by a save" before you can determine whether the sustainability itself can be ended by the save!

For instance, returning to the example above, why can't "being pulled 1 square" be a persistent effect a save could end? The power's fluff could be that of a mesmerizing gaze, a siren's call, or the like.

In this (hypothetical) case, the target would get a save against the pulling effect, but as long as the caster sustains, he would reapply a "new" pulling effect each round, thus making any saves pointless until after the caster ceases to sustain the effect... only then would a successful save free the target...



Again, including the text "If the target saves, you cannot sustain this power" would have made the rules crystal clear!

[CapnZapp]

Danceofmasks: Unless the caster chooses to sustain, there is nothing to save against. At least when the "save ends" appears under the sustain heading.

And you don't sustain until the turn after you "cast the spell" (used the power).

So much is clear. Could I ask you to focus on the bits and pieces that aren't?

[Danceofmasks]

I've said so before ... read my other posts.
Because the (save ends) doesn't apply to the effect that is generated by the act of sustaining, but rather your ability to sustain.

Hence, where Tendrils of Thuban ought to be read as:

Sustain minor: <some stuff> (save ends)

Crown of Madness ought to be read as:

Sustain minor: <some stuff> (save ends)


Now, you could say "treat the <some stuff> for Crown the same as Tendrils" ... well, then ... go right ahead.
You made your save?
I sustain again ... erm ... there's nothing saying I can't.
Unless ... it's read as (save ends)

[CapnZapp]

Originally Posted by Danceofmasks

I've said so before ... read my other posts.
Because the (save ends) doesn't apply to the effect that is generated by the act of sustaining, but rather your ability to sustain.

Hence, where Tendrils of Thuban ought to be read as:

Sustain minor: <some stuff> (save ends)

Crown of Madness ought to be read as:

Sustain minor: <some stuff> (save ends)


Now, you could say "treat the <some stuff> for Crown the same as Tendrils" ... well, then ... go right ahead.
You made your save?
I sustain again ... erm ... there's nothing saying I can't.
Unless ... it's read as (save ends)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, or your motivations for making this any murkier than it is already...

But we seem to agree on one point, perhaps the most important one:

The "save ends" can apply to either the effect or the "sustainability" and that this is determined by the "persistentness" (or "ongoingness") of the effect!

Am I right?

And if I am, don't you agree this is a rather newbie-unfriendly rule? :-)


Zapp

PS. Could it be that we differ on one point only; namely that you're arguing the target can free himself of the sustainability of the power already before the caster has begun sustaining it?

[Danceofmasks]

Yup, that's what I'm saying.
You can only sustain on a hit .. so if the (save ends) condition is sustain minor:, they can end it immediately after you hit.

[Hypersmurf]

Originally Posted by Danceofmasks

You can only sustain on a hit ..

This is the case with neither Crown of Madness nor Tendrils of Thuban; are you referring to a third power with a specific reference to the Sustain in the Hit entry?

With both Crown of Madness and Tendrils of Thuban, you can sustain the power whether the inital attack hits or not.

-Hyp.

[DracoSuave]

Originally Posted by CapnZapp

The issue here is that "save ends" is directed towards the sustaining bit. How are we supposed to know this? Because the effect of sustaining is not ongoing.

Well what else -could- it save ends?

The basic attack?

The only persistant effect is the spell itself. Every other aspect of it is instantaneous.

[Danceofmasks]

Originally Posted by Hypersmurf

This is the case with neither Crown of Madness nor Tendrils of Thuban; are you referring to a third power with a specific reference to the Sustain in the Hit entry?

With both Crown of Madness and Tendrils of Thuban, you can sustain the power whether the inital attack hits or not.

-Hyp.

Hmm.
Looks like an error on my part, thanks!

[CapnZapp]

Originally Posted by DracoSuave

Well what else -could- it save ends?

The basic attack?

The only persistant effect is the spell itself. Every other aspect of it is instantaneous.

That's my point!

You need to parse the effects of sustain to see if you can find something that's persistant (if so, that's what the save ends) or not (if so, the save have to end the sustain, as there's nothing else for it to end)...

This, I maintain, is very much NOT easy for a newbie...

...or for anyone at all, really (judging from the confusion hanging over this very thread... ;-)

[Plane Sailing]

Heck, my players even get confused by the business of making a choice to sustain a power the round after you use it! It seems logical to them that you cast the power and in the round you cast it you choose whether you want to sustain it or not, so the actual process takes them aback each time.

Cheers

[CapnZapp]

This latter aspect is because it removes the need for you to remember something, methinks. Placing the decision-making close to when the results happen, and all that.

[Sunglare]

Seems simple enough to me.

1. Warlock cast Crown of Madness, Hit's or Miss's target and does damage.
The target now has a effect upon him
2. End of targets turn it gets to make a save (but fails).
3. Warlock chooses to sustain Crown of Madness, (target now has to make
a basic attack against a target of Warlocks choosing.
4. Target goes again and at the end of it's turn it makes another save.
(suceeds), effect is gone.
5. Warlocks turn, effect is gone and has nothing to sustain.

[Kordeth]

Originally Posted by Sunglare

Seems simple enough to me.

1. Warlock cast Crown of Madness, Hit's or Miss's target and does damage.
The target now has a effect upon him
2. End of targets turn it gets to make a save (but fails).
3. Warlock chooses to sustain Crown of Madness, (target now has to make
a basic attack against a target of Warlocks choosing.
4. Target goes again and at the end of it's turn it makes another save.
(suceeds), effect is gone.
5. Warlocks turn, effect is gone and has nothing to sustain.

This. Exactly this.