D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
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I believe the issue that Danceofmasks is laboring to get across is the ambiguous referent of the '(save ends)' phrase.
Meaning, it can either be read as:
1. A successful save ends the warlock's ability to sustain the effect.
or
2. A successful save ends the effect itself.
If it is the former, the target would only be entitled to a save in the next round (if the warlock chose to sustain the power).
If it's the latter, the target would be entitled to a save at the end of their next turn.
Except that's the not how the game works. When a PC/NPC has a effect them that allows a "save ends" they do it at the end of their turn.
On a side note and was kinda mentioned. I can't find it anywhere that actuallly say sustain effects automatically last one round before you have to choose to sustain them. I'm starting to believe that you need to choose to sustain something just after you use it. That would probably solve this whole discussion. Maybe i just missed a FAQ or CS answer somewhere.
I'm aware of that, my point was that, depending on the interpretation, the *earliest* they could save would either be the same round as they were afflicted (if you go by interpretation 2), or the next round (if you go by 1).
In either case, RAW is made of fail in this issue.
'cos the very first rule of rules-lawyering is: if a rule can be interpreted in more than 1 way, it is not clear enough.
__________________ The Passion of Lovers is for Death
Except that's the not how the game works. When a PC/NPC has a effect them that allows a "save ends" they do it at the end of their turn.
Their point is that it doesn't gain the "save ends" attributue until you have sustained it, and you don't sustain it until your next turn, so the target has to deal with the effect at least once before it becomes a "save ends" effect.
By one interpretation at least.
Quote:
On a side note and was kinda mentioned. I can't find it anywhere that actuallly say sustain effects automatically last one round before you have to choose to sustain them.
Hypersmurf quoted it in post 11 of this thread:
Quote:
We need to look at p278:
Sustained Durations: An effect that has a "sustain standard", a "sustain move", or a "sustain minor" duration lasts as long as you sustain it. Starting on the turn after you create an effect, you sustain the effect by taking the indicated action: a standard action, a move action, or a minor action. (You can sustain an effect once per turn.) Some effects do something, such as attack, when you sustain them. A power's description indicates what happens when you sustain it or let it lapse. At the end of your turn, if you haven't spent the required action to sustain the effect, the effect ends.
Except that's the not how the game works. When a PC/NPC has a effect them that allows a "save ends" they do it at the end of their turn.
True but they don't save against effects they don't have and the effect never even shows up until the warlock has sustained it. There is no Effect line, it's totally unlike the effect listed on the Hit line. Things that you have to save against are actually supposed to have at least one turn's effect on a person, that's why you suffer effects from the beginning of your turn and don't make the save until the end of your turn, and why trying to skip your turn doesn't prevent that.
True but they don't save against effects they don't have and the effect never even shows up until the warlock has sustained it. There is no Effect line, it's totally unlike the effect listed on the Hit line. Things that you have to save against are actually supposed to have at least one turn's effect on a person, that's why you suffer effects from the beginning of your turn and don't make the save until the end of your turn, and why trying to skip your turn doesn't prevent that.
This is true but other characters have the option of letting said effected character make a pre-mature save so they can get rid of any condition, effect, etc etc on them. By saying that the target can not save until the warlocks chooses to sustain it your saying other character can not give the target a pre-mature save too. Also those similar effects usually happen on the targets next turn but Crown of Madness works only on the Warlocks turn.
This is true but other characters have the option of letting said effected character make a pre-mature save so they can get rid of any condition, effect, etc etc on them. By saying that the target can not save until the warlocks chooses to sustain it your saying other character can not give the target a pre-mature save too.
Exactly. It's a daily, they are stronger than normal powers.
Quote:
Also those similar effects usually happen on the targets next turn but Crown of Madness works only on the Warlocks turn.
Which is probably why you don't get a chance to save before the warlock has had a chance to use the effect at least once.
The party comes across a rival adventure group. There is bad blood between these groups.
The NPC's Warlock cast Crown of Madness on player A, "You guys see a deformed misshappen crown appear around Player A's head and he looks a little confused now, save ends".
Player B(Warlord) -"I use Hero's Defiance to remove the charm."
DM- "(imput response here)"
The party comes across a rival adventure group. There is bad blood between these groups.
The NPC's Warlock cast Crown of Madness on player A, "You guys see a deformed misshappen crown appear around Player A's head and he looks a little confused now, save ends".
Player B(Warlord) -"I use Hero's Defiance to remove the charm."
DM- "(imput response here)"
Except it doesn't actually work that way.
The power does not become an "effect that a save can end" until the warlock's next turn, when he sustains it.
The point is that (as with most Daily's) even on a miss, the warlock still gets an effect from the power.
The power does not become an "effect that a save can end" until the warlock's next turn, when he sustains it.
The point is that (as with most Daily's) even on a miss, the warlock still gets an effect from the power.
It doesn't say this anywhere and there is nothing to support it. That's a houserule.
Edit: I'm convinced that whoever wrote the Warlock powers didn't get the update on how powers should be written out. They should of had a Effect line or at least a second hit vs will on the second round if the first attack hit or something like. I sent in a question to Sage advice, hopefully they answer on this one.
Last edited by Sunglare; 2nd January 2009 at 07:07 PM..
It doesn't say this anywhere and there is nothing to support it. That's a houserule.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
The text that supports it has been quoted (twice, at your request since you couldn't be bothered to read the posts at the beginning of the thread), and it supports it explicity. Thus, it is not a houserule.
The text that supports it has been quoted (twice, at your request since you couldn't be bothered to read the posts at the beginning of the thread), and it supports it explicity. Thus, it is not a houserule.
Yeah yeah yeah I read all of Hypersmurfs post and just as Danceofmask has said he didn't prove anything. All we know is how Sustain works. That's a given. There is nothing in the books that explains how sustain(save ends) works. There is nothing that specifically says "If a power has Sustain (save ends) then this is when target-A can save." There is nothing that says sustains starts the effect IN FACT using the word sustain means you must be continuing something that is already in effect. Your not sustaining "starting" an effect your SUSTAINING something that is already there.
To me the spell itself is the effect and as soon as the warlock cast it on the target it's takes effect but he can't benefit from the sustain part until his next turn.
Yeah yeah yeah I read all of Hypersmurfs post and just as Danceofmask has said he didn't prove anything.
Which is quite a bit different than the "nothing supports, it's just a houserule, lalalala" that you were spouting. By the way, you might want to review the forum rules before you get reported. It's a breach of etiquette to tell somone "If you do that it's a houserule" just because you disagree with them.
And DanceofMasks admitted he was in error, in his second to last post.
Despite your handwaving, it looks to me like Hypersmurf did prove something.
The relevent bit is "Some effects do something, such as attack, when you sustain them. A power's description indicates what happens when you sustain it or let it lapse."
Nothing in your posts counters or refutes that, you have just ignored it.
In this case, when you sustain it, the power becomes "Save Ends", because thats what it says on the "Sustain" line of the power. It doesn't say it anywhere else in the power, so it doesn't apply until the effects of the "Sustain" line are applied, and that doesn't happen until you actually Sustain it.
I will agree that this is a "newbie unfriendly" rule, and could have used an example or direct mention in the section on sustaining powers. But this is the only way that does not contradict the text on sustaining powers.
Last edited by Caliban; 2nd January 2009 at 09:01 PM..
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