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Heck, all your players need to do is walk down to the store and buy a standard set up plate, and then can enchant it to be +6 Godplate. As others have said, all magic armor above a certain point is Masterwork Armor. So your players don't really have to "buy" it per se, they can just enchant it.
While you're right in that all magic armor above a certain point is masterwork, technically you can't transform standard plate into godplate.
I know there is no price issue or power issue or balance issue. But still, masterwork armor is not defined as a layer on top of the existing armor. It's defined as armor made out of a completely different material.
I realize this is all very easy to ignore, but the rules should really clear up this mess. If you enchant a standard suite of plate mail, you would end up with a +6 plate mail (which I agree would suck).
While you're right in that all magic armor above a certain point is masterwork, technically you can't transform standard plate into godplate.
I know there is no price issue or power issue or balance issue. But still, masterwork armor is not defined as a layer on top of the existing armor. It's defined as armor made out of a completely different material.
I realize this is all very easy to ignore, but the rules should really clear up this mess. If you enchant a standard suite of plate mail, you would end up with a +6 plate mail (which I agree would suck).
[/NITPICK]
Then how do you procure Masterwork armor that's not enchanted? The price is "special", remember? Additionally, it has a minimum enhancement bonus, which means that there is no such thing as mundane Masterwork armor. Are you proposing that the only way to get Masterwork armor is to find it? And that the only way to get it with the enchantment you want is to enchant over the existing effect? That's a pretty severe thing to do, since you're basically throwing away a high level magic item and yet still paying the cost of another high level magic item (including the cost of Masterwork armor that's already factored into the cost of the item).
All of this is moot anyway though... CS has said that the enchant item ritual will make mundane armor into Masterwork. Essentially, you can't have +6 standard plate, because anything past a certain point must be Masterwork armor.
That's exactly what we are looking for - Where it is said (by CS) that past a certain threshold, that all enchanted armor must be made from masterwork materials.
We (In the game I run) assume that it is made through a magic assisted process - not accessible to the normal armorsmith - and every single suit that can be masterwork is.
Then how do you procure Masterwork armor that's not enchanted? The price is "special", remember? Additionally, it has a minimum enhancement bonus, which means that there is no such thing as mundane Masterwork armor. Are you proposing that the only way to get Masterwork armor is to find it? And that the only way to get it with the enchantment you want is to enchant over the existing effect? That's a pretty severe thing to do, since you're basically throwing away a high level magic item and yet still paying the cost of another high level magic item (including the cost of Masterwork armor that's already factored into the cost of the item).
Relax... I was only playing rules-lawyer with you.
:-)
I still have a point, though, and that is that the PHB is lacking: they don't define exactly where standard plate "becomes" each level of masterwork.
Relax... I was only playing rules-lawyer with you.
:-)
I still have a point, though, and that is that the PHB is lacking: they don't define exactly where standard plate "becomes" each level of masterwork.
Sure they do, the minimum enhancement bonus. If you have +4 Plate, it's Masterwork because it meets the minimum enhancement bonus. Now granted, they could've done a better job of explaining that fact in an easy to understand manner, but having everything be Masterwork after +4 was their intent.
Now, with the introduction of the Adventurer's Vault, it changes things a bit, but not much. Basically, at certain levels (like the +2 or +3 levels) you have a choice between Masterwork armor with some kind of bonus, or mundane armor with a higher AC but no bonus. Then, once you get to +4 and higher, you have the choice between PHB Masterwork armor or AV Masterwork armor. Pretty simple.
Sure they do, the minimum enhancement bonus. If you have +4 Plate, it's Masterwork because it meets the minimum enhancement bonus. Now granted, they could've done a better job of explaining that fact in an easy to understand manner, but having everything be Masterwork after +4 was their intent.
Now, with the introduction of the Adventurer's Vault, it changes things a bit, but not much. Basically, at certain levels (like the +2 or +3 levels) you have a choice between Masterwork armor with some kind of bonus, or mundane armor with a higher AC but no bonus. Then, once you get to +4 and higher, you have the choice between PHB Masterwork armor or AV Masterwork armor. Pretty simple.
Look, Doctor Proctor.
I'm willing to endure your flippant tone, but don't gloss over legitimate issues, alright?
I have already made it clear my post was only a nitpick. But now it seems we need to go to the bottom of this.
If I want to create a +2 plate mail, you say I have a choice between standard PHB plate, and AV masterwork plates.
But what choice is that?! I could either get a straight +10 (8+2) or get Rimefire plate which also gives +10 and resist 1 all. Or I could, for the same price, get Layered plate, which gives +11 AC!
Where is this "mundane armor with a higher AC but no bonus" you speak so lightly of?
I see nothing simple about this. Instead, I find it to be confusing and indicative of power creep.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond, James Bond
As said before, the new masterwork armor mainly just smooth out the already exisiting scale of armor progression.
And masterwork armors are required by the game as they are the only way to compensate for the fact that light armor users can add their (ever increasing) int or dex to their AC, and heavy armor useres can`t.
Exactly.
Masterworks armors are a "bug fix" masquerading as a "cool feature". The designers knew light armor folks (with stat increases to Dex or Int) could out-pace heavy armor folks, so they threw in a kludge to fix the problem.
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
I'm willing to endure your flippant tone, but don't gloss over legitimate issues, alright?
I have already made it clear my post was only a nitpick. But now it seems we need to go to the bottom of this.
If I want to create a +2 plate mail, you say I have a choice between standard PHB plate, and AV masterwork plates.
But what choice is that?! I could either get a straight +10 (8+2) or get Rimefire plate which also gives +10 and resist 1 all. Or I could, for the same price, get Layered plate, which gives +11 AC!
Where is this "mundane armor with a higher AC but no bonus" you speak so lightly of?
I see nothing simple about this. Instead, I find it to be confusing and indicative of power creep.
I'm not being flippant, and the only one being an *** here is you.
I simply mispoke. I didn't have my AV book in front of me and assumed that the tradeoffs that apply to the armors at the higher enhancements applied at the lower ones. I was incorrect. There's no reason to be an *** about a mistake though.
The point I made still stands though. Your DM can hand you +2 Mundane Plate if he feels like it. Or he can give you Rimfire. He can also hand you +6 Tarrasque, or +6 Godplate. The Tarrasque has Resist 5 all, but lower AC than the Godplate. So you get hit more, but have Resist 5 to any incoming damage from those hits (as well as auto-damage and ongoing damage effects that aren't affected by AC).
Now, if you're enchanting the armor yourself? Yeah, it would be silly not to make one of the AV Masterword Armors at the +2 or +3 enchancement level. At +4 and beyond though, it depends on what you want. Do you want more AC, or less AC with a bonus?
And as for power creep, so what? It's a +1 to AC or a NAD (or Resist 1 for Plate) at levels where a lot of players complain about AC anyway. The old power curve for AC was very bumpy, and general had some issues in the Paragon tier. Now that's been fixed. It's not putting your totally out of line with enemies of those levels, so I wouldn't call it "power creep" just because there's a bigger number there.
To sum up though, Masterwork Armor is easy to understand. Anything above a +4 enhancement bonus is automatically Masterwork. If you're using the Adventurer's Vault then you can also get Masterwork Armor at the +2 or +3 enhancement levels. It's up to your DM to determine if this is automatic, or if you can still find mundane +2 or +3 armor. It could either way really...but it's the DM's decision.
Yeah, masterwork armor is one of the most confusing parts of the 4e rules. The table was poorly-explained, and IMHO out of place.
As Nail said, it's a kludge to fix the power curve between heavy & light armors. If you disregard it, the folks in light armor will be way ahead of the folks in heavy armor by the mid-levels.
Unless you go with one of the tricky Masterworks from AV, I'd just assume that the Masterwork AC upgrades go hand-in-hand with the enhancement bonuses, and disregard the flavor text except in those cases where it'd be cool not to disregard it.
While you're right in that all magic armor above a certain point is masterwork, technically you can't transform standard plate into godplate.
I know there is no price issue or power issue or balance issue. But still, masterwork armor is not defined as a layer on top of the existing armor. It's defined as armor made out of a completely different material.
I realize this is all very easy to ignore, but the rules should really clear up this mess. If you enchant a standard suite of plate mail, you would end up with a +6 plate mail (which I agree would suck).
[/NITPICK]
Come at it from a different perspective - the process of making armor masterwork doesn't have to occur when the armor is first crafted or forged.
Here's how I interpret what the PHB says on masterwork armor: Once armor gets enchanted with enough magic, the magic actually permeates the physical material of the armor. In order to enchant something to +4 or +6, you use those techniques mentioned under each armor type in order to suffuse it with the necessary amount of magic to provide that extra protection.
AV does throw a bit of a wrench into these works, admittedly. If you assume that the lower level masterworks always existed then it isn't much of a problem, but if you allow both the PHB default and AV masterworks to co-exist (for example, you can get either +3 plate or +3 Gith plate), then things get sticky.
Also, with the variant masterwork armors presented in AV (ie - that there is more than one kind of masterwork armor for a given enhancement level) think of it as no different than the choice between Dwarven or Razor on a suit of Scale armor. When the enchanter performs the ritual, he chooses which masterwork property to convey to the armor just as he chooses which 'normal' magical property to convery to the armor.
Disagreed. This isn't power creep. It's "smoothing out" the AC curve for heavy armor PCs.
I do see your point. But:
Errataing the PHB would be "smoothing out" the curve.
Introducing new armors in a splatbook not every DM will allow in their game cannot be anything but power creep, plain and simple. Those armors in AV are strictly better than those of the PHB. How can that not be powercreep?
(Powercreep as in the "publishing new books which intentionally contain better loot than seen before in order to drive sales" definition)
If the book had instead reproduced the PHB armor table, with the new masterworks added in, and there was a note to replace the old table with the new, then that would have been borderline acceptable. (Because errata should come free, and not require splatbooks)
As it stands, there is no mention whatsoever of this "smoothing out". Remember not all DMs read ENWorld, have DDI access or buy splatbooks at all.
Yeah, masterwork armor is one of the most confusing parts of the 4e rules. The table was poorly-explained, and IMHO out of place.
As Nail said, it's a kludge to fix the power curve between heavy & light armors. If you disregard it, the folks in light armor will be way ahead of the folks in heavy armor by the mid-levels.
Unless you go with one of the tricky Masterworks from AV, I'd just assume that the Masterwork AC upgrades go hand-in-hand with the enhancement bonuses, and disregard the flavor text except in those cases where it'd be cool not to disregard it.
-O
So, are you proposing a rule where heavy armor would effectively gain 2 ac per enhancement bonus? (to be fair, light armor should then also gain the first extra at 3rd and not 4th level)
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4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
So, are you proposing a rule where heavy armor would effectively gain 2 ac per enhancement bonus? (to be fair, light armor should then also gain the first extra at 3rd and not 4th level)
If that's how the math works out, sure?
I don't have my books with me to check. I'm suggesting keeping the math the same, even if you use the Transfer Enchantment ritual or the like.
While I was surprised at first by the new masterwork armors in AV, most of it made sense after I looked at it: smoothing out the heavy armor curve, or providing extra options (-1 AC for +2 in another defense, etc.).
But I'm surprised no one's mentioned the one undeniable aspect of power creep in those armors: the cloth and leather armors are lighter! It's not that big a deal, but still: are those errors by someone not looking at the PHB, are they really meant to weigh less, or are they stealth errata and that's how much the standard PHB armors are supposed to weigh?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnZapp
Introducing new armors in a splatbook not every DM will allow in their game cannot be anything but power creep, plain and simple. Those armors in AV are strictly better than those of the PHB. How can that not be powercreep?
That's a good question, and I understand your frustration.
...But check this out: The AV masterwork armors fill in the gaps between (for example) normal plate, warplate, and godplate. The AV armor isn't "better" than the PH armor.
Thus, it's not powercreep.
Looking at the progression, the designers seem to think (and I agree) that heavy armor needs a +1 masterwork bump every time they get an enhancement bump. That is, every 6 levels both the masterwork and enhancement should go up by one.
With AV, plate now has that progession, and scale and chain have most of that progression (missing only the 21st level bump).
It's not powercreep. It's stealth errata.
I'm sure they'll describe it as "exploring the design space", or something similar.
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Look, I don't want to argue as we seem equally irritated about this new "stealth errata" strategy.
But how can you claim it isn't powercreep? Yes, it's "stealth errata" but that doesn't make it less "creepy".
Let's take Layered plate armor as an example, and contrast that to the PHB's Warplate. Warplate requires an enchantment bonus of +4, which means the magic armor is at least level 16. The earliest you could hope for is if you're level 11, so let's take a level 10 Fighter as our example.
Before AV: the best armor for our F10 would be Plate Mail +3 for a total AC bonus of 11.
With AV: the best armor for our F10 would be Layered Plate +3 for a total AC bonus of 14.
By simply buying this book (and getting its use approved by your DM*) your Fighter gains a +3 bonus to AC at no cost whatsoever. The guideline even goes so far as to suggest his existing suit of armor should be automagically upgraded! *) and many DMs will have a policy where anything official from WotC gets auto-approved for their campaign
This is power creep, plain and simple. And it will remain so until such time the "stealth" is taken out of the errata, making Layered Plate an official part of PHB-only campaigns too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnZapp
Look, I don't want to argue as we seem equally irritated about this new "stealth errata" strategy.
Agreed.
IMO, the designers quickly realized that by putting powers for every class in the book, they'd have precious little space in that same book for much else. So they included some feats, some equipment, and only a few powers per level...and then put the full treatment in separate splatbooks.
That's a good marketing strategy, but it means that well over half the system actually hasn't been released yet. Think about it: the Adventurer's Vault is just the remainder of the PH (1) equipment chapter. The Martial Powers is just the remainder of the Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Warlord sections that should have been in PH 1. Etc.
(sigh)
So it's not "errata" in the sense of "corrected mistake". It's more like an "addendum".
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnZapp
Yes, it's "stealth errata" but that doesn't make it less "creepy".
Hee, hee! I like that quote.
(I take it you don't want to argue the powercreep thing back-n-forth. I'm cool with that, either way.)
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Well, I do take objection to the notion that AV is an addendum to the PHB. That's a far too forgiving stance for me.
The three core books are a contained game and should be viewed as such. Any additional books are completely optional. I don't buy that only "half the system" is included. You get the whole system alright, then if you wish more options, the rest of the books are there for you.
Feel free to buy everything Wizards throws at you, but don't expect others to feel the same.
That said, have a nice day. I certainly don't wish to argue about this either, so let's agree to disagree and move on
Sorry to pick on your math, but yes, your point still stands. Without masterwork armor, the light armor wearers will outstrip non-Dex or non-Int based defenders. That just doesn't seem right, does it?
No, it doesn't, it's actually rather silly. Theres no reason a paladin in magical godplate armour which is as light and flexible as magic can make it can't be just as nimble as the rogue AND with the heavy armour be better protected. It gets even sillier when when compareing it to int-based defence. Hands up if you think that an 80 year-old scientist should be much harder to hit than a 25 year-old marine.
They really needed to go with a different system. 3E had evasion and touch-attacks which admittedly could have been improved upon too. I'd be very tempted to rip out the system from Conan or another game where armour adds DR against strength attacks instead of adding AC, but I don't think it would scale easily with some of the crazy numbers of dice that get tossed at higher levels.
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