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What with all the talk about how double swords are broken, I only just now noticed the new masterwork armours.
While I like the idea behind the ones where there's some sort of tradeoff (snakeskin leather +4 for +6 AC and +2 Ref, or feyleather +4 for +7 AC?), I'm not sure what's the reasoning behind ones that are just plain better than equivalent PHB options. Such as anything where the required enhancement is +2, +3 or +5.
At the start, masterwork armours seemed like something half-finished when it was put in the PHB. There's this big table and different names and stuff, and it all boils down to "light: at enhancement +4, add +1, at enhancement +6, add +2; heavy: at enhancement +4, add +3, at enhancement +6, add +6".
AV gives the table some reason for existence, but it's still a bit weird. For example, there's a Price column, dutifully explained as the "The item's price in gold pieces (gp)"... even though the price is "special" (and effectively +0 gp!) for every single masterwork armour in the game!
And it's very annoying that suddenly any +3 scale has no reason not to be +11 to AC, rather than the +10 as it is in the PHB.
I don't really have a problem with it. With the PHB armour types, there are some large jumps in AC at higher levels. The AV armour types smooth out the curve a bit, and add a bit of variety.
It smooths out the scales for most armor types. I don't particularly mind it, to be honest. It keeps the jumps at 4th and 6th much smaller, comparatively, and also gives a few neat options for folks who'd like special perks instead of extra AC.
And it's very annoying that suddenly any +3 scale has no reason not to be +11 to AC, rather than the +10 as it is in the PHB.
Because the DM says so? In my campaign you can't buy masterwork armor. You can find them as loot or perhaps go on quests to have them specially made or whatever. But they are definitely not the norm.
I don't really have a problem with it. With the PHB armour types, there are some large jumps in AC at higher levels. The AV armour types smooth out the curve a bit, and add a bit of variety.
Quite right. I saw armours that were strictly better than the PHB ones, and it seemed like simply blatant power creep to, but it really does fit the same curve.
The fact that it took the writers another book to figure out that a 6-point curve could be smoother than 0, 0, 0, 0, 3, 6 does agree with my suspicions that they haven't quite thought this through either.
Because the DM says so? In my campaign you can't buy masterwork armor. You can find them as loot or perhaps go on quests to have them specially made or whatever. But they are definitely not the norm.
That sounds like most magic items in 4E, no? Rarity reflected through the fact that you have to find it as loot or go on quests isn't really rarity in D&D, considering that the focus of the game is going on quests and looting. And anyway, I don't think that in a game like D&D, rarity is a valid justification for a game element to be overpowered.
(I don't think the masterwork armours are overpowered anymore, but I wanted to comment on the general principle.)
No, actually. In 4E, characters are generally allowed to simply purchase any magic item they can afford, up to their level. Items beyond the PC's level must be found as loot. (PHB 223, DMG125)
Masterwok Armors also MUST be found as loot. (PHB212) This makes them much different from regular armors, and a lot more rare (as rare as the DM wants).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasin
Rarity reflected through the fact that you have to find it as loot or go on quests isn't really rarity in D&D, considering that the focus of the game is going on quests and looting. And anyway, I don't think that in a game like D&D, rarity is a valid justification for a game element to be overpowered.
(I don't think the masterwork armours are overpowered anymore, but I wanted to comment on the general principle.)
I don't understand why you don't think that the DM making something rare doesn't count as it being rare... A suit of plain old +4 Platemail is perfectly fine for a level 16 to acquire easily. Roleplay the finding of the blacksmith to make it, Enchant it yourself, or simply handwave it and pay the gold, it doesn't matter. +4 Warplate Armor, however, is something special and not nearly as easy to acquire. It is this rarity that makes it unique, and will make the players that much happier when(if) it is discovered.
No, actually. In 4E, characters are generally allowed to simply purchase any magic item they can afford, up to their level. Items beyond the PC's level must be found as loot. (PHB 223, DMG125)
Masterwok Armors also MUST be found as loot. (PHB212) This makes them much different from regular armors, and a lot more rare (as rare as the DM wants).
I don't understand why you don't think that the DM making something rare doesn't count as it being rare... A suit of plain old +4 Platemail is perfectly fine for a level 16 to acquire easily. Roleplay the finding of the blacksmith to make it, Enchant it yourself, or simply handwave it and pay the gold, it doesn't matter. +4 Warplate Armor, however, is something special and not nearly as easy to acquire. It is this rarity that makes it unique, and will make the players that much happier when(if) it is discovered.
Later!
Gruns
I seriously hope you are adjusting the monsters down to compensate since the design was balanced based on those masterwork armors being used for anything their plus or higher etc. Also due to the lack of a stat bonus to ac heavy armor wearers the light armor rogue and ranger etc would have higher AC than the plate wearing fighter if you didn't do the masterwork route.
At 30 a rogue can hope for about 24-26-28 dexterty depending on epic destiny and starting score. So lets go with the 26 which grants a Dexmod of +13, Leather armor +6 without masterwork qualities is 8 AC plus the 13 dexmod 21 ac from armor and stat Plate Mail +6 is 14 ac... meaning the light armor wearing rogue has 7 more ac from his armor than the fighter without factoring in masterworks
If you go for top of the line masterwork for both in AC pursuits you end up with starleather +6 granting 10 AC + the 13 for 23 ac from armor and stat and the level 6 godplate granting 20, for well 20, that brings the disparity of AC down from 7 to 3. 7 difference is pretty harsh, 3 is at least not too crazy, and that is assuming a starting stat of 18 with a +2 stat epic destiny or a 20 and no stat epic D. Though I imagine most rogues would want to take hide feat to get voidhide and the +2 fort bonus it offers for the same ac as starleather.
No, actually. In 4E, characters are generally allowed to simply purchase any magic item they can afford, up to their level. Items beyond the PC's level must be found as loot. (PHB 223, DMG125)
Masterwok Armors also MUST be found as loot. (PHB212) This makes them much different from regular armors, and a lot more rare (as rare as the DM wants).
uh, no, keep reading page 212... you skipped over the line that says
"The cost of masterwork armor is included in the cost of magic armor."
Armor of +4 or above in PHB is assumed to be of masterwork quality. The "cost" is already factored in. And as you pointed out, it's a given that players can buy a item of their level or less with their gold.
I don't see what is the big deal about just throwing say, godplate armour in your fighter's face. It should already have been balanced based on its item level and gp cost (meaning that the player will access it only when appropriate, and as resources allow).
At 30 a rogue can hope for about 24-26-28 dexterty depending on epic destiny and starting score. So lets go with the 26 which grants a Dexmod of +13, Leather armor +6 without masterwork qualities is 8 AC plus the 13 dexmod 21 ac from armor and stat Plate Mail +6 is 14 ac... meaning the light armor wearing rogue has 7 more ac from his armor than the fighter without factoring in masterworks
If you go for top of the line masterwork for both in AC pursuits you end up with starleather +6 granting 10 AC + the 13 for 23 ac from armor and stat and the level 6 godplate granting 20, for well 20, that brings the disparity of AC down from 7 to 3. 7 difference is pretty harsh, 3 is at least not too crazy, and that is assuming a starting stat of 18 with a +2 stat epic destiny or a 20 and no stat epic D. Though I imagine most rogues would want to take hide feat to get voidhide and the +2 fort bonus it offers for the same ac as starleather.
Seems you forgot that 10 is a +0 mod there. 26 gives you a +8 Also, to have a 26 at level 30, all you need is an 18 to start and increase it at every opportunity, you don't need a boost from your epic destiny.
So then in the non-masterwork example, the rogue has 8 AC from +6 leather, +8 Dex, which gives him 16 AC from armor and stat. The plate-wearer with +6 plate has, as you said, 14 AC from armor, putting the rogue ahead by 2. The rogue could upgrade to hide for an extra +1 and the plate wearer could add a heavy shield for an extra 2, putting the plate wearer behind by a total of 3.
With masterwork, the rogue has 10AC from +6 starleather, +8 Dex, giving 18 AC from stat and armor. Mr. Plate has +20 AC from +6 godplate, totalling 20 AC from stat and armor. This puts the plate-wearer ahead by 2. If the light armor wearer went with hide instead, they'd only be 1 behind, but the plate wearer can add a heavy shield for an extra 2.
Sorry to pick on your math, but yes, your point still stands. Without masterwork armor, the light armor wearers will outstrip non-Dex or non-Int based defenders. That just doesn't seem right, does it?
Masterwok Armors also MUST be found as loot. (PHB212) This makes them much different from regular armors, and a lot more rare (as rare as the DM wants).
I checked, the closest thing it says to what you're saying is, and I quote, "These masterwork armors never appear except as magic items, and even then only at the highest levels." At the end of the paragraph it also states, as Ibixat said, that the price of masterwork armor is included in the cost of magic armor.
The book doesn't say that you can only find them as loot. It says that masterwork armor is only magical. So unless the book states somewhere that magic items can only be found as loot and never purchased (which it does not - not that that stops a DM from saying that's how his/her world works, of course), then you can certainly purchase masterwork armor. Not only that, but the price is included, and the math is balanced on the assumption that you have such armors. Basically, if your players don't get masterwork armors when they're at a high enough level, you're gimping them.
As said before, the new masterwork armor mainly just smooth out the already exisiting scale of armor progression.
And masterwork armors are required by the game as they are the only way to compensate for the fact that light armor users can add their (ever increasing) int or dex to their AC, and heavy armor useres can`t.
The book doesn't say that you can only find them as loot. It says that masterwork armor is only magical. So unless the book states somewhere that magic items can only be found as loot and never purchased (which it does not - not that that stops a DM from saying that's how his/her world works, of course), then you can certainly purchase masterwork armor. Not only that, but the price is included, and the math is balanced on the assumption that you have such armors. Basically, if your players don't get masterwork armors when they're at a high enough level, you're gimping them.
First column, third paragraph PHB p. 223 says that you can 'sometimes' buy magic items, usually only low-level. Anything higher will involve travelling to a fantastic location.
DMG p. 155 says basically it's up to the DM if they want players to be able to buy magic items.
So you're right, but the default assumption is that it's a very limited market.
Yes, true. But it never says "magic items are not for sale, and can only be found as loot." My point is, if you can buy +6 plate, you can buy +6 godplate, and by rights, that +6 plate SHOULD BE godplate, or some equivalent masterwork armor. Anything else is gimping your players.
I totally agree that you shouldn't be able to walk into the market in some random town and buy godplate. But if you find a seller in the City of Brass, it had darn well better be +6 godplate, not just normal plate.
Yeah. Choosing to have your +6 plate armor made out of steel is like choosing to buy a fine flatware set made from the plastic knives, spoons, and forks taken from various fast food restaurants. It's just not done.
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Last edited by Whimsical; 6th December 2008 at 01:57 AM..
Just consider the AV masterwork armors as errata to the PHB masterwork armors - just erratta without having to admit to the errata-ing... a case of "stealth-errata", if you will.
And of course you can have players buy all the masterwork they want if you feel like it, don't be silly.
Just consider the AV masterwork armors as errata to the PHB masterwork armors - just erratta without having to admit to the errata-ing... a case of "stealth-errata", if you will.
And of course you can have players buy all the masterwork they want if you feel like it, don't be silly.
In support,
p.214 bottom right:
"The cost of masterwork armor is included in the cost of magic armor of 16th level or higher".
Obviously, the idea is that variously high-level magic armors are normally made masterwork. I'd assume the same principle holds for the AV armors; the masterwork price is included in the magical price. (And yes, a +3 scale used to be rather underarmored compared to a hide-armor wearer at those levels).
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4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
Heck, all your players need to do is walk down to the store and buy a standard set up plate, and then can enchant it to be +6 Godplate. As others have said, all magic armor above a certain point is Masterwork Armor. So your players don't really have to "buy" it per se, they can just enchant it.
The new AV armors are really on there to give you more options. Give up a few AC points on your plate armor and you can have Resist All 5. Or you go with Godplate for max AC and just hope you don't get hit.
Heck, all your players need to do is walk down to the store and buy a standard set up plate, and then can enchant it to be +6 Godplate. As others have said, all magic armor above a certain point is Masterwork Armor. So your players don't really have to "buy" it per se, they can just enchant it.
The new AV armors are really on there to give you more options. Give up a few AC points on your plate armor and you can have Resist All 5. Or you go with Godplate for max AC and just hope you don't get hit.
With ongoing damage effects the way they are I think the resist 5 all is the only way to go. I Wonder how much more damage that will block on it's own compared to the difference in hit rate though, anyone want to math it up? I'm too tired to do that stuff.
Also, to have a 26 at level 30, all you need is an 18 to start and increase it at every opportunity, you don't need a boost from your epic destiny. 
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