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So, are there any tattoos which would benefit from burning healing surges preemptively? Even adding just 5 damage to all dailies by preemptively burning 5 surges would be scary if that is how it works (and it almost gives Durability a purpose for everyone other than 8 con wizards).
Yes, that's how they work. Though that durability means the wizard's powers would be doing more damage as well, which is pretty good for a nuker build.
Unless I'm missing some hidden math somewhere this just equals out to 20-25 extra damamge per day, if you're using a ton of Surges to fuel the tattoo. Where is teh benefit in that? Granted the Damage increases a good deal when you're using area effect powers, but I still think keeping my tail alive is a bit more useful to everyone involved.
"Dwarf, be healed!"
"Sorry, I'm out of healing surges, but wasn't that last hit aweso-Urk!"
Note: the item's description explicitly says "damage rolls" so things like auto-damage stances aren't getting this benefit.
Unless I'm missing some hidden math somewhere this just equals out to 20-25 extra damamge per day, if you're using a ton of Surges to fuel the tattoo. Where is teh benefit in that? Granted the Damage increases a good deal when you're using area effect powers, but I still think keeping my tail alive is a bit more useful to everyone involved.
"Dwarf, be healed!"
"Sorry, I'm out of healing surges, but wasn't that last hit aweso-Urk!"
Note: the item's description explicitly says "damage rolls" so things like auto-damage stances aren't getting this benefit.
a) The fighter auto-damage stances do damage dice (1W, by and large)
b) If fighters can be expected to work with 11 healing surges in epic (say, the str/wis or str/dex fighters people were talking about in the battlerager thread), then the dwarven high con fighter with 20 healing surges has spares to burn. A *lot* of spares.
Hunh. You're very right. For some reason I was misremembering those as allowing MBAs against adjacent enemies at the triggering moment. I was thinking the autodamage ones worked like damage auras. My mistake.
The orbs. Why? Just why? They aren't at the Memory Bottle (thought bottle?) level of bad idea, but still...
Assuming they were roll to hit you could end up:
Sending just your friends in.
Sending just the monsters in.
Sending some, but not all of either in.
The risk of the daily power being worthless or outright dangerous would be a bit too high. Having it be "automatic" may seem bad, but the way attacks and defences are set up, you'd be missing much too often for it to be a reliable way to shape to battle. Consider a lot of the zone effects for wizards ... they are "auto hit as long as they are in the area" in some cases as well, this power doesn't do damage directly, so basically it's a powerful zone power that is all effect, little or no damage. It is pretty much a high paragon to epic level power.
Sending just your friends in.
Sending just the monsters in.
Sending some, but not all of either in.
The risk of the daily power being worthless or outright dangerous would be a bit too high. Having it be "automatic" may seem bad, but the way attacks and defences are set up, you'd be missing much too often for it to be a reliable way to shape to battle. Consider a lot of the zone effects for wizards ... they are "auto hit as long as they are in the area" in some cases as well, this power doesn't do damage directly, so basically it's a powerful zone power that is all effect, little or no damage. It is pretty much a high paragon to epic level power.
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. You wouldn't want to end up trapping just yourself and 5 monsters in a 5x5 room for even one round, would you? Especially if it meant blowing your daily to do so?
Honestly though, I don't see this as being particularly broken yet. It could use some tweaking, such as perhaps the terrain being copied inside the orb? The ability to split up the battle and take care of a few opponents isn't that overpowered for a daily I think. The Wizard could just as easily try to use something like Wall of Fire or Wall of Ice to cut off a small group of enemies from the rest of the group until you killed them. Those powers are arguably even more powerful though because you can push enemies into the walls for damage...you can't do that with the orb.
Basically though, unless your players are using some broken combo to be able to use this 10 times a day, it's probably not going to have that big of an effect on your campaign. One thing that could possibly help to limit it if you want is to say it needs to "charge" up. At the start of the day, it's a Close Burst 1 centered on the Wizard. After one milestone it's a Range 1 Burst 1, and then after two milestones you get the full Range 2 Burst 2.
Sure, but it could work just like it does now, but change sustain minor to include an Int attack vs Will on all targets other than yourself. If you miss, the target may choose to immediately leave the area as a free action.
Sure, but it could work just like it does now, but change sustain minor to include an Int attack vs Will on all targets other than yourself. If you miss, the target may choose to immediately leave the area as a free action.
Guaranteed one round, after that it gets dicier.
That's definitely an interesting fix... If the bad guys start leaving the sphere, it loses it's usefulness. Additionally, hitting that attack with any consistency on a big Solo or Elite will be hard. This means it would be hard to do what some people were worried about and use the sphere to gimp certain high level monsters by pulling them away from their minions. You could perhaps keep him in there for a round or two, maybe three if you roll good, but probably not much longer than that. So I think that might be a good balancing ability.
Honestly though, I don't see this as being particularly broken yet. It could use some tweaking, such as perhaps the terrain being copied inside the orb? The ability to split up the battle and take care of a few opponents isn't that overpowered for a daily I think. The Wizard could just as easily try to use something like Wall of Fire or Wall of Ice to cut off a small group of enemies from the rest of the group until you killed them. Those powers are arguably even more powerful though because you can push enemies into the walls for damage...you can't do that with the orb.
Walls are temporary delays for the monsters, who can go around or through them. Orbs are a permanent delay. It's still too powerful IMO.
Walls are temporary delays for the monsters, who can go around or through them. Orbs are a permanent delay. It's still too powerful IMO.
Wall of Fire is a sustain minor, the same as the orb. So in terms of the amount of time they can exist, they're the same.
Granted, you can move through a wall of fire....but it costs 3 extra squares of movement, does 3d6+INT damage and an additional 1d6+INT if you're don't move far enough and start your next turn adjacent to it. So yeah, you can get around the wall, but only at great cost. Plus, if you were trying to block a small area, such as a 10' hallway, you could snake the wall such that the enemy has to go through 2 or 3 squares of the fire wall. This would result in massive amounts of damage because you might not even be able to make it all the way through in a single round!
The point is, while they're not the same exactly, they create similar effects. They can isolate enemies and allow the party to split up the encounter at-will. The walls can also completely distort the terrain the DM made by creating new terrain that must be avoided. With something like Web, you can even further distort the DM's carefully crafted terrain. That one is an auto-hit as well, since anyway ending their movement is automatically immobilized.
The tattoos don't seem too bad. Sure, you can tweak out a Dwarven Battlerager or an Orc Barbarian or a Half-Elf Whatever a bit, but still, they're definitely not overpowered.
Also, how are these characters going about "spending" healing surges right as they wake up? I'm sure certain magical items (I think I saw 1-2 from the AV) let you spend for some purpose, but other than that...are all the PC's friends just taking turns clubbing this guy?
The point is, while they're not the same exactly, they create similar effects. They can isolate enemies and allow the party to split up the encounter at-will. The walls can also completely distort the terrain the DM made by creating new terrain that must be avoided. With something like Web, you can even further distort the DM's carefully crafted terrain. That one is an auto-hit as well, since anyway ending their movement is automatically immobilized.
You're right that they're similar, but IMO they're nowhere near similar enough to say that one is balanced because the other is. "You can get past it at a cost" is vastly different from "you can't get past it no matter what, and it destroys all of the terrain around you, replacing it with terrain favorable to me."
Another interesting effect of the orbs is the "Limited Rope Trick".
1) The orb's effect can be sustained for 5 minutes. (Standard max duration for "sustain" powers.)
2) A short rest is 5 minutes.
3) Ergo, the Wizard can suck the party into the orb in the middle of a combat and sustain the demiplane while the others gain a short rest. Takes some maneuvering to get the party and noone else in a 5*5 area, and the Wizard gets no rest, but it's still neat.
4) Sure, there might be an ambush waiting outside when the party returns, and any enemy survivors may have gotten a short rest too. That's why you plan for running.
Any holes in my reasoning?
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I've seen this happen several times these last 6 months of gaming. The DM has clearly put lots of thought into cool terrain and monster synergies ...but has neglected to think through how the first round of the fight will inevitably bottle up the PCs in the entrance to the cool terrain.
...then most of the actual combat happens in the narrow, confining entrance, with precious little maneuvering/shifting/tactics/cool stuff.
It's a common DM pit-fall --> one I've fallen in myself several times: If you want the PCs to be involved in the super-nifty terrain you've set up let them get through the stinkin' door before you pounce on 'em!
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Another interesting effect of the orbs is the "Limited Rope Trick".
1) The orb's effect can be sustained for 5 minutes. (Standard max duration for "sustain" powers.)
2) A short rest is 5 minutes.
3) Ergo, the Wizard can suck the party into the orb in the middle of a combat and sustain the demiplane while the others gain a short rest. Takes some maneuvering to get the party and noone else in a 5*5 area, and the Wizard gets no rest, but it's still neat.
4) Sure, there might be an ambush waiting outside when the party returns, and any enemy survivors may have gotten a short rest too. That's why you plan for running.
Any holes in my reasoning?
Technically, using the orb probably takes some time, and in any case, other characters will spend ever so slightly less than 5 minutes resting. Practically, that's a ridiculous objection - these durations aren't that meaningful, and neither is the 5 minute requirement for resting. At the same time, it's easy to claim that staying in some odd demiplane just isn't resting, so if a DM thinks "cheese" you're not on very solid footing.
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4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
You're right that they're similar, but IMO they're nowhere near similar enough to say that one is balanced because the other is. "You can get past it at a cost" is vastly different from "you can't get past it no matter what, and it destroys all of the terrain around you, replacing it with terrain favorable to me."
(a) It's higher level than the walls and webs used as examples. At that level there are powers like cloudkill, disintegrate, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc. The wizard is thus sustaining a power that is primarily cutting things off, the secondary effects are much less powerful that comparable sustainable attack powers (you have on orb that has an area that is like the web spell, you have the bone pit which has to roll to hit to do something comparable to cloudkill's auto-damage, the ice area is comparable to utility zones.
(b) There is a way to "get past it at a cost". That cost is preventing the wizard from sustaining it. Stun the wizard or render the wizard unconcious and voila, it's gone. The wizard is in a 5x5 room, it isn't exactly hard to get to him. The wizard has in fact made it easier for you to attack him. He also got within 5 squares of you to unleash this power in the first place.
(c) Terrain you've come to know and expect isn't exactly terrain favorable to you. The PC doesn't get to design the internal area, it "comes with the orb". Now, they could get the exact one they want, and know the best way to use it, but the DM is going to get used to the area as well. With the bone shard area ... there are only a limited number of spaces for the party to be aranged, ditto the web area, to avoid the problematic squares.
Also, you can isolate a solo monster from it's allies ... but you also have a solo monster, many of which have auras and reach and other nasty powers in VERY close proximity to the entire party. You've trapped the party as much as you've trapped the monsters. Sure, you can decide not to sustain the power but that doesn't go until the end of your turn, and even then, you end up approximately he same distance from each other upon your return.
We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. Any item that can easily destroy all the hard work the DM put into his encounter is crap in my book, and they'll never be seen in my game in their current incarnation. If I find one in someone else's game, I'll happily abuse the hell out of them to turn challenges into cakewalks.
We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. Any item that can easily destroy all the hard work the DM put into his encounter is crap in my book, and they'll never be seen in my game in their current incarnation. If I find one in someone else's game, I'll happily abuse the hell out of them to turn challenges into cakewalks.
Of course, the DM knows the player has the orb in the first place. That can mean the type of monsters that don't want to get close ... don't get close. The wizard COULD try to get himself (and the rest of the party) past the lines of defences between them and the BBEG, but that means the wizard is putting himself in a lot of danger, and most of the melee people ... are having to deal with the same problem they would have to deal with otherwise. The "best" use of the orb involves locking down artilery/lurkers without getting many, if any, of the brutes and soldiers locked in with you, but one of the main strategic challenges has always been isolating/trapping those hard to reach guys instead of wasting time on the harder to kill/hit ones. While it can be used to isolate and kill the brute soldiers, effectively only accomplishing the ability to remove the other monsters from the fight temorarily (still useful). However, the unprotected artillery and lurkers may not choose to keep fighting if the meatshields are gone. And if the party is also gone, no one is really preventing their escape.
There are a lot of options for the DM/monsters to employ. If the party doesn't have an artificer, it's a daily power that the DM can plan around. If the party uses it in such a way that the monsters outside the orb think it's better to bugger off and regroup, then the party will reappear to an empty encounter area having beaten a "small" encounter. Or, perhaps, the rest of the fight have brought in some reinforcements, even if they are just minions, they could create enough of a cushion for the artilery and lurkers, etc to not be immediately creamed.
The orbs of sequestered conflict all transport you and creatures in a burst 2 within 2 to a 5-by-5 miniature universe inside of the orb; the terrain is different depending on which version you have. The gossamer orb's realm is filled with spider webs, the boneyard is a big red dragon skull pedestal surrounded by shifting bones, and the glacier is covered with ice and several stalactites and is obfuscated with mist. These orbs start at level 19~20.
OK. Now, THAT is funky way cool. And a great way to separate a leader from his followers...
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