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Re: Orbs. Am I the only one when reading about this thought of those Pokemon balls? Great, so not only has 4th edition put a little Magic: the Game into D&D (Power Cards), now they've added a little Pokemon too.
I personally, find the "world in a bottle" concept 15 kinds of kick-ass, and I like the fact they're going beyond "+X to attack rolls/defenses and once a day you can do something marginally useful" with magic items.
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Yeah, I love the concept too. But it makes it too easy to split the enemy. If it automatically hit everything in the battle, and thus only let you change the terrain, it would be better. It'd still be too much IMO, because it destroys the GM's desire to make interesting terrain. But at least then it wouldn't both nullify all terrain and also let you split the enemy forces into easily chewed morsels.
Yeah, I love the concept too. But it makes it too easy to split the enemy. If it automatically hit everything in the battle, and thus only let you change the terrain, it would be better. It'd still be too much IMO, because it destroys the GM's desire to make interesting terrain. But at least then it wouldn't both nullify all terrain and also let you split the enemy forces into easily chewed morsels.
Shrug. At 20th level, PCs ought to start having these kinds of world-warping abilities. One of my issues with 4e at release was that higher tiers were very much like lower tiers, just with bigger numbers. Something like this is something which really sets apart higher-level adventuring. Epic adventuring should be EPIC.
(I also like games like FATE (Spirit of the Century) where players can actively alter the terrain or "change reality" via metagame abilities, so it really doesn't bother me.)
As others have noted, this ability basically seals a squishy wizard in the dome with the monsters. "We're not trapped in here with you; you're trapped in here with US." If he gets a lot of monsters, unless they're minions, he's likely to be dead quickly. If he only gets 1 or 2, he's removed himself from the fight while the rest of the monsters do the "No controller dance!" all over the party. Certainly, in some circumstances, it could be a "We win!" button, but I think using it well will require some tactical skill.
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As others have noted, this ability basically seals a squishy wizard in the dome with the monsters. "We're not trapped in here with you; you're trapped in here with US." If he gets a lot of monsters, unless they're minions, he's likely to be dead quickly. If he only gets 1 or 2, he's removed himself from the fight while the rest of the monsters do the "No controller dance!" all over the party. Certainly, in some circumstances, it could be a "We win!" button, but I think using it well will require some tactical skill.
Why would any wizard ever trap himself in with tough monsters. The party decides when and where the ability is used. If he does trap himself, point, laugh, and continue the game while he makes a new character or awaits a raise dead, because the player is a moron or chose to make a noble sacrifice. What's really going to happen though, is that the prty will work together to make sure that every time it's used it's as close to an I win button as possible. Your mileage may vary, but my group isn't stupid, so I know exactly how it would turn out.
Try it in your game and see how it works for you. If it's fun to have your carefully crafted terrains and monster synergies removed with a standard action, great.
Try it in your game and see how it works for you. If it's fun to have your carefully crafted terrains and monster synergies removed with a standard action, great.
It will be a long time before I run a 4e epic game, but I'm quite used to my Brilliant Encounters falling to pieces before the cleverness of the players in every other game I've played, from GURPS to 3e. A new and exciting way of having them turn the game around wouldn't bother me much.
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Why would any wizard ever trap himself in with tough monsters.
Well, isn't that part of the point that you've been arguing about? If the Wizard is just trapping himself with a bunch of Minions then what's the point? He could've used that Standard to drop an AoE on them and finished them off properly without using the Orb. I thought the whole point was to try and use it to separate tough monsters from the pack to whittle down their numbers.
The problem though, as Lizard pointed out, is that the monsters are in there with the Wizard...and he just burned his standard. If they're pushovers then it won't matter much to the encounter design, and if they're not, then they'll have a good opportunity to go after the Wizard in close quarters where he can't escape.
And honestly, as for your "lovingly crafted terrain"... As pointed out before, there are a TON of Wizard abilities that will massacre that terrain and completely screw up your encounter design. If you have a problem with Wizard's getting around/creating terrain, then you should just ban the class. My party's Wizard can't wait to get his hands on Web, which is an encounter long effect. Talk about encounter changing...and it's only a level 5 daily. This orb is level 19 or 20! At least with the orb you can try to stun the Wizard to get out of the Orb. With Web, there's no way to remove it.
Well, isn't that part of the point that you've been arguing about? If the Wizard is just trapping himself with a bunch of Minions then what's the point? He could've used that Standard to drop an AoE on them and finished them off properly without using the Orb. I thought the whole point was to try and use it to separate tough monsters from the pack to whittle down their numbers.
What I'm saying is that he won't trap himself with them. He'll trap them with him and the rest of his party. Going in alone is a stupid move, and you can't balance an item based on the hope that the PCs will be stupid.
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The problem though, as Lizard pointed out, is that the monsters are in there with the Wizard...and he just burned his standard. If they're pushovers then it won't matter much to the encounter design, and if they're not, then they'll have a good opportunity to go after the Wizard in close quarters where he can't escape.
If his Defender was capable of pretecting himself outside of the orb, he should be capable of protecting him inside it. If he isn't capable, then the orb is immaterial because the wizard is dead.
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And honestly, as for your "lovingly crafted terrain"... As pointed out before, there are a TON of Wizard abilities that will massacre that terrain and completely screw up your encounter design. If you have a problem with Wizard's getting around/creating terrain, then you should just ban the class. My party's Wizard can't wait to get his hands on Web, which is an encounter long effect. Talk about encounter changing...and it's only a level 5 daily. This orb is level 19 or 20! At least with the orb you can try to stun the Wizard to get out of the Orb. With Web, there's no way to remove it.
Each and every one of those abilities leaves the current terrain intact, and only modifies it. If you think teleporting to a pocket dimension of your choosing and web are the same, we may as well stop here because we're on completely different wavelengths.
I think I know to what purpose I'm going to bend the Orb mechanics.
They should work great for big monsters with Engulf attacks.
There is already a beastie that does something similar(ish) - the Astral Dreadnought from Manual of the Planes (it's previewed on the WotC site). If it manages to swallow a PC, that character is stuck in a pocket dimension with naught but the Dreadnoughts horrible floating eyeball staring at them (and it stares so hard it does damage). They're not out of the fight because this is 4e they can still attack the eye, but they're separated from their allies. If the dreadnought eats the cleric for example, it's bad for both the eaten and the remainder party.
But back to the orbs, I have to weigh in here with James. There are so many exciting encounters that these orbs would nullify, it's unreal. Just to fill people in, I like dramatic battles with much more going on than two parties simply beating on each other. When the party is leaping from ice flow to ice flow in the arctic river as they sword fight with Eladrin, when the party are choking on the sulferous fumes of the volcanic vents whilst the Hell Hounds harry them, when the Vrocks are swooping past them from perch to perch (and these orbs sound really bad for highly mobile or stealthy opponents), I do not need the players' response to be "okay - merlin, turn on the orb."
What I'm saying is that he won't trap himself with them. He'll trap them with him and the rest of his party. Going in alone is a stupid move, and you can't balance an item based on the hope that the PCs will be stupid.
If his Defender was capable of pretecting himself outside of the orb, he should be capable of protecting him inside it. If he isn't capable, then the orb is immaterial because the wizard is dead.
Fine, so you have your party of 5 PC's. I assume you want all of them in the sphere? Let's say you have a Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric (easier for my chart below). Let's say it looks like this:
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxFPx
xRWC
That's a pretty good defensive setup with the Defenders in front, and it allows ample space to fit monsters inside. Now, that gargantuan dragon you're fighting? Yeah, he won't fit. So instead, we'll go with something a bit smaller...maybe a large creature? You can fit two of them in the orb with the PC's in the current configuration.
Even if we go with medium sized though, you're only going to get a few in there. If you actually get one of the enemy squishies, like a controller, then you could be in for some hurt because your whole party is now in a tight little bunch. If there's some skirmishers it could also pose a problem because they would probably focus fire with ranged attacks on the Wizard, and the Fighter and Pally will have a hard stopping that completely if the enemy has any Soldiers or Brutes with them.
There's a lot of pitfalls to putting yourself into a 5x5 square, but you're not really seeing them. Unless the DM is asleep at the wheel, he should be able to take advantage of them. If all the PC's are bunched to get in the sphere, then his monsters can do whatever they want while the whole party is in the sphere. If not all the PC's are in the sphere, then not only were the monsters split, but the party too! It's not just an automatic win button like you seem to think.
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Each and every one of those abilities leaves the current terrain intact, and only modifies it. If you think teleporting to a pocket dimension of your choosing and web are the same, we may as well stop here because we're on completely different wavelengths.
I didn't say they were the same, just similar. In some ways, Web is actually a more powerful ability. The Wizard doesn't need to be within it's effects, it's ranged, doesn't cost a sustain minor (which means he can use another power that requires a sustain minor) and it permanently alters the terrain for the duration of the encounter. The orb only "alters" it for the time that the party is in the sphere. Once they drop back into reality, they'll be right back in the middle of your carefully designed terrain, with all the rest of the monsters from the encounter to deal with.
So yeah, I think it's a perfectly valid comparison. The Orb has additional controlling effects that Web does not, but Web permanently alters the terrain in a powerful way and at no cost to the caster.
All I can say is "try it and see." My view of what will happen given an intelligent group of players is alot different than yours. And we're obviously on different wavelengths.
All I can say is "try it and see." My view of what will happen given an intelligent group of players is alot different than yours. And we're obviously on different wavelengths.
Have fun!
At the same time, some are taking the view that while the players are an intelligent group, the DM is as well. It may not be hard for the PCs to get in position to use the orb, but the DM controls the monsters, not the PCs.
I'm already using a slight mod of the Spellscar abilities in my campaign as tatoos that characters can purchase, so the idea behind them I have no problem with.
The get better the more healing surges you spend? I don't understand why. They're just magically enchanted tatoos right? So how are they linked to your endurance? Seems silly to me.
A one off (Daily) spell that can be cast from them sounds simple enough, no need to complicate them with buffs.
Only a few of them care about your surges. The rest have other triggers.
All magical tattoos react to the character's inborn abilities: surges, being bloodied, etc. Presumably it's because they're more than just an item, they're tied directly into your nervous system.
I take it you're unfamiliar with 4E's forced movement rules and powers?
I'm familiar with them. However, those do involve having to hit for the most part. While the orb is "no attack roll needed" ... it does involve using, and hitting, with the right powers to get the most use out of it. Since the orb doesn't suddenly make those powers auto-hit, and those powers are important to use the orb effectively, the orb isn't automatic by any stretch. The fighter can Come and Get It a couple of monsters into position, but then again, monsters that close are likely the kind you could get easily like brutes and soldiers.
And, regardless, you can't fight the entire encounter in the orb unless it's against a "straight" solo, and it's either not a dragon, or it's a dragon that you catch at the right moment.
Of course, the DM knows the player has the orb in the first place. That can mean the type of monsters that don't want to get close ... don't get close.
TBH, I don't like the direction of this kind of reasoning. It reminds me of certain 3E arguments:
"Dear DM, please remember that pcs of level X will have access to fly, teleport, etc. so please design your adventures with this in mind."
IOW, the orbs decrease design space. If I have to take them into account for every encounter I'm creating there are things I can no longer do, so they really hurt the game.
I think the idea behind the orbs is cool, but I don't like the execution and the potential for abuse.
And, regardless, you can't fight the entire encounter in the orb unless it's against a "straight" solo, and it's either not a dragon, or it's a dragon that you catch at the right moment.
Thank you, that's the point I've been making all along. The point is that you're not fighting the entire encounter. If an encounter is balanced for your party, and you split it into pieces, is it still balanced?
The orbs aren't as useful against a solo, unless the GM has designed some interesting scenery that you want to avoid. Their usefulness comes precisely from allowing you to not fight the entire fight in one place or against a coherent and unified opposition.
Have you played at high enough levels to use powers (monster or otherwise) that remove someone from the battle for a while? Whether it's warlocks sending you to another plane, elementals immobilizing a melee character with a sustain effect, or being swallowed whole, the ability to remove even a single creature from the fight for a short amount of time is insane. The ability to pick and choose which and how many you remove indefinitely is even better.
If that's the game you want to play, that's cool.But it goes against the "terrain matters" and "balanced combats" precepts that 4E supposedly adheres to.
Looking back over the maps while composing my response to Dragon, I thought of a couple more things wrong with the orbs.
- Any monster that relies on terrain can be nullified. Lurkers will be hard pressed to lurk when there's nowhere to hide that can't be reached in a single move action.
- Likewise monsters that need space to work are also nullified. Skirmishers become weak soldiers unable to break away from the defenders and strikers.
- They need rules for what happens to things that are taken inside and left behind. Can the PCs build fortifications? What if someone gets disarmed and the effect ends before they get their weapon back?
(a) The orb can make things considerably easier, however unlike a lot of powers that eliminate someone from the fight temporariliy, this does not damage those it eliminated (i.e. those it didn't take into the orb). It will make 1 encounter per day easier ... of course, most daily powers make an encounter a lot easier than it would normally be.
(b) It is possible to use "waves" as a way to make a party able to face higher level encounters than they would normally be able to do. That was the idea behind the Irontooth fight, and the orb can be a way for the DM to up the challenge level against the party. Having the monsters that were "left behind" get reinforcements isn't completely out of the question, especially if they are fighting intelligent creatures.
(c) Skirmisher/Lurkers are the monsters that will really hate the orbs, artillery as well to some extent. At the same time, brutes and soldiers won't care that much. I think that's been mentioned a few times already. They aren't nullfied, but they are definitely hurt. At the same time, the same can be said about just about anyone but the defender and melee leaders ... the ranger/warlock/rogue is going to be limited in their mobility [the barbarian will have a hard time charging], and the wizard is forced in close quarters, not to mention he has to pretty much avoid doing any area of effect attacks while inside the orb.
(d) There is no mechanic for disarming per se in the first place. The rules for things like "what happens to stuff you leave in the orb" is likely something that can be handled by the DM. The easiest way to handle things ... anything not "native" to the orb is shunted out at the end, whether it's held or not. So whatever was disarmed would be in the same relative space it was when they got out. If a DM thought it would be cool to have the PCs build a club house there (over the course of many days, 5 minutes at a time) he could, but it does seem a bit implausible. Also, if they bring in that much material, then it would likely start pulling in material when the orb is used, making terrain features from one area come along for the ride, which is probably not the normal use for the orb.
Ultimately, I'm not saying everyone should allow the orb. They put the disclaimer there for a reason, these orbs aren't just run of the mill magic items, they are "allow the players to have them at your own risk". What I am saying is that, a DM that gives them to the players it's doomed to failure if they understand that going in, and design their encounters accordingly. The players, by that point in their career are going to have a lot of powerful abilities. If the DM just designs encounters without factoring in the PCs abilities, they are going to have their plans foiled quite often.
Ultimately, if returning from inside the orb just means finishing what's left of the encounter ... and that is what always happens, then the DM isn't really trying. When the ENTIRE party disappears, depending on how it is, I would think the other monsters would act. Either the party ends up coming back and ending up face to face with another encounter that has shown up to help, or to find that the rest of the encounter has fled, perhaps to increase the population in a different encounter.
A DM that sees it as a prolem doesn't have to include. A DM that sees it as an opportunity can work with a party that has the "rare" magic item. Regardless, the item should never be considered something that is easy to make/buy, and should be kept away from artificers ... but then again, both the orbs AND artificers are in playtest, so that particular situation way be solved before they both become official.
Yeah, I think most of what you said is the right way to look at it. With such a small space, the PC's will be at a large disadvantage as well. There's a ton of striker powers that allow you to do things like shift twice your speed in order to get out of trouble...in a 5x5 square, such things are useless. The PC's are in just as much danger as the monsters.
Sure, I guess if you've got a couple Tempest Fighters or TWF Rangers, you might be alright...but that's a very specific party build for high damage, and with those kinds of players they would've been able to lock down and decimate individual enemies anyway.
Another thing that's being missed here I think is that it's going to be hard to cherry pick which enemies end up in orb. The easiest ones to get in or course, would be the Brutes and Soldiers. They'll be out in front engaged with your Defenders anyway, so it's just a matter of moving up your back row and activating the orb. Those are also the enemies that will be least affected by the orb in terms of losing their ability to maneuver around the battlefield.
And yes, while the part has a lot of powers that allow for push/pull/slide effects, those are usually encounter and/or daily powers. How many powers are you going to expend to get half a dozen enemies into that sphere? Most of your push powers will be useless unless the enemy was already in your back row mixing it up, which means you'll need to rely on the less common pull/slide powers. About the only really cheap one for doing this would be the Fighter's Come and Get It and it's higher level versions. Even still, unless he runs into the enemy back row, he's mostly likely going to be drawing in Brutes and Soldiers.
Basically, as long as you're not treating like any mundane item where the party can enchant one or buy one in a shop, then I don't see a problem with it. By keeping it limited to just one per party it's going to be a once a day power that they can use. Also, as Walter pointed out, while the Artificer can recharge items that is a class that's in playtest right now too. When these things actually come out "officially" it's possible that many properties of each will be changed (I know they were talking about completely redesigning the Artificer's ability to heal, for example). If, at that point, having an Artificer in your party means you can recharge this thing on a short rest for 50gp or something ridiculous, then you can cry nerf. Until then though, I don't see how this will really screw things up that bad.
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