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That sounds like WAY more work than is needed. Prep a card? Sheesh.
"You see a Squamous Thing."
"I roll 25 on my Arcana check."
"OK, the Squamous Thing is vulnerable to acid and can eat your spleen from 20 feet away."
"Cool."
I can't imagine it being a difficult or complex process. Hell, 4e -- the game under discussion -- even tells you EXACTLY what you know with each level of knowledge check.
I said prep because not all players should know the info.
Its VERY little time to make a card of that info in 4e. But if its not your thing, its still faster to say that info every time than role and look it up on a chart each encounter.
Funny, I find that chart to be just as easy (if not easier) to look up as such information as Initiative, AC, the damage and attack rolls, and the rest of the statblock. I find by looking in the same area of the book, I find it.
I said prep because not all players should know the info.
All of them don't, just the one you tell it to.
The way our games work:
Player: I roll arcana!
DM: OK, it's blah.
Player (in character): Guys, be careful. That thing can eat your spleen at 20 paces!
If, for some reason, the player who makes the check chooses NOT to tell the other characters in context, the other players play their characters without that knowledge.
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Hmm, How about this for class features. (very rough because I'm very tired)
War wizards get a +1 to hit and +2 to damage to go with thier blastery-ness
Controller wizards impose a -2 to all saves. Then introduce a lot more status efffects that have save ends (say, in arcane power) in the form of at-wills, encounters, daily's etc.
My human wizard is trained in Religion, Arcana and Nature. That cover most Monster knowledge check. And all these skill key off intelligence so these are good scores.
Sorry, but Nature is keyed off Wisdom, not Intelligence.
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Before being a smart alack you might want to read the entire post. You know the line oldtimer quoted where the person said all those skills keyed off intelligence. And then oldtimer was polite enough to correct him.
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And no, Wizards don't -need- +1 to hit/+2 damage or -2 to saves. That's just... no.
Mearls said that wizards at-wills are not controlling enough, so they'll be pushing the envelope on that. What does that mean? It means expect to see controlling wizard at-wills in the future. How does -2 to saves make their at-wills more controlling? It doesn't. Really. No. And wizards already have the ability to push a defense, offense, or saving throw once per encounter. They -already have- those abilities.
Use them. Jeeze.
He also said the encounter and daily abilities are fine. So if the only problem is the amount of control in at-wills (he said the damaging ones are fine), then the answer is more controlling at-wills. Nothing else.
Sorry, but Nature is keyed off Wisdom, not Intelligence.
Oh well. Everything crumbles to dust then...
I didn't recheck the character sheet before posting, but the point still stand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahrimon
Hmm, How about this for class features. (very rough because I'm very tired)
War wizards get a +1 to hit and +2 to damage to go with thier blastery-ness
Controller wizards impose a -2 to all saves. Then introduce a lot more status efffects that have save ends (say, in arcane power) in the form of at-wills, encounters, daily's etc.
Yes, brother! Let's preach the truth until the wizards once again rule the world! Power to the wizards! Power to the wizards! Magic is Might!
Ahem.
That being said, I'd prefer orb wizards to have a flat -1 to all saves in place of an occasional overpowering - WIS.
Last edited by Mal Malenkirk; 28th December 2008 at 12:11 AM..
I was rereading the Gladiator article, specifically the Arena Fighting Feats (Marital class feats which modify specific at wills). Surely it would be possible to write up a series of "Guild Trained" feats which modify Wizard at wills to give them a bit more of a controller aspect?
I am going to give this a bit more thought for some ideas, but here is a start:
Golden Wyvern Initiate [Guild Trained] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Wizard
You may choose to exclude your allies from your ranged burst atwill powers.
That being said, I'd prefer orb wizards to have a flat -1 to all saves in place of an occasional overpowering - WIS.
While I think it should be a flat amount to avoid certain absurd builds, -1 seems weak when a feat can give -2. A class ability should at least equal to a feat, in fact it should be feat+. I really don't know what the orb wizard should get, if it stacks with the feat it can quickly get nasty. Heck maybe they get the feat for free even if they don't have the Chr for it and its provides -3 instead of -2.
__________________ There is no force in the universe strong enough to protect you from your own stupidity.
But a class feature giving -1 to saves doesn't address the -only- stated problem with the wizard class, which is the at-wills not controlling enough.
If it does, could you please explain it?
Its the only stated problem from the designer. Others seem to think there are other porblems, like there is no decent core controller feature in the class abilities.
__________________ There is no force in the universe strong enough to protect you from your own stupidity.
Yeah, but that 'problem' doesn't make them less effective at dealing their role, which is to control. In terms of their role, they do a half-decent job of it, but they'd do a better job with a few more controlling at-wills to choose from. A class feature doesn't address that problem, and addressing that problem will establish the wizard as a solid controller.
I mean this is the same community that once thought thunderwave was weak, enfeebling strike was terrible, that wizards can't deal AoE damage, and that staff of defense was a terrible implement. I don't consider this community a good authority on what is best for class design compared to a designer who has been playing and tweaking the game for a lot longer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahglock
Its the only stated problem from the designer.
Consider, from the designer's standpoint, how you might address the problem that "wizards aren't controller-y enough".
You could add a class feature: IMO, this is best but it would require publishing new "builds" of the wizard that make the old builds weak (like the battlerager fighter),
You could add new At-Wills: this seems weaker to me, but it does have the advantage of being accessible by any wizard build, using the existing retraining rules.
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Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
While I think it should be a flat amount to avoid certain absurd builds, -1 seems weak when a feat can give -2. A class ability should at least equal to a feat, in fact it should be feat+. I really don't know what the orb wizard should get, if it stacks with the feat it can quickly get nasty. Heck maybe they get the feat for free even if they don't have the Chr for it and its provides -3 instead of -2.
Well, it's a lot stronger than any heroic tier feat the wizard has access to. It's not as good as a paragon level feat, but by then I think you'll find feats are much stronger.
What I'm thinking is maybe having the orb wizard getting -1 to all save (stacks with the feat) plus, once per encounter, they can slide an enemy suffering from a condition inflicted by a power a number of square equal to their WIS bonus. That's pretty sweet for setting up better AoE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracosuave
But a class feature giving -1 to saves doesn't address the -only- stated problem with the wizard class, which is the at-wills not controlling enough.
If it does, could you please explain it?
Oh, it doesn't. It was just an aside brought on by the post I was quoting.
Last edited by Mal Malenkirk; 29th December 2008 at 06:47 AM..
I was rereading the Gladiator article, specifically the Arena Fighting Feats (Marital class feats which modify specific at wills). Surely it would be possible to write up a series of "Guild Trained" feats which modify Wizard at wills to give them a bit more of a controller aspect?
I am going to give this a bit more thought for some ideas, but here is a start:
Golden Wyvern Initiate [Guild Trained] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Wizard
You may choose to exclude your allies from your ranged burst atwill powers.
Phaezen
Don't you think it treads on the toes of an epic feat?
Spell Accuracy [Wizard]
Prerequisite: Wizard
Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the area of effect of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.
(and ranged burst at-wills basically just means Scorching Burst, which is a bit specific for a feat, surely?)
Cheers
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Don't you think it treads on the toes of an epic feat?
Spell Accuracy [Wizard]
Prerequisite: Wizard
Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the area of effect of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.
(and ranged burst at-wills basically just means Scorching Burst, which is a bit specific for a feat, surely?)
Cheers
Both valid critisms as I said it is an idea I am playing with to see how it works.
The Arena Fighting feats I am basing this off each modify one at-will from 3 or 4 martial classes so mechanically they each modify one at-will for the character, half-elf dilettante notwithstanding.
Just trying to brainstorm a way to give wizards more controller options with thier at-wills without changing core.
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